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Offline einotuominen  
#1 Posted : 21 October 2022 18:13:51(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Hello,

Edit: There was a confusion with terms in this thread. With grinder, I refer to the locomotive pickup shoe.

I heard or read somewhere that ”that grinder is not suitable for digital use” and it has bothered me since. What could this mean? Apparently ”that grinder” however is suitable for analog.

So is there some added requirements for grinder or it’s condition if it is used for digital (conversions for example)?

BR,
-Eino

Edited by user 23 October 2022 11:21:21(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 21 October 2022 18:40:13(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,706
Location: DE-NW
Which grinder?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline einotuominen  
#3 Posted : 21 October 2022 18:55:07(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Hi,

This is more like a general question, not for specific grinder or other part.

Just trying to gather overall knowledge 😊

-Eino
Offline Copenhagen  
#4 Posted : 21 October 2022 19:27:31(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Are you talking about something like a Dremel tool?
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 21 October 2022 19:32:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,706
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
This is more like a general question, not for specific grinder or other part.
Just trying to gather overall knowledge 😊
Rule of thumb: Some analogue devices are of limited use on digital layouts.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline einotuominen  
#6 Posted : 21 October 2022 19:49:29(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Are you talking about something like a Dremel tool?


No…. This is just something that I heard that a grinder has to be suitable for digital and I wish to understand what is behind it… cause it really makes no sense to me…
Offline Donb  
#7 Posted : 21 October 2022 20:04:34(UTC)
Donb

Canada   
Joined: 03/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 257
Location: Fraser Valley
Perhaps in this case "grinder' is referring to the motor, then yes the motor must be converted to permanent magnet type to be useable in Digital systems.
Best Regards,
Don
___________________________________________________________________________________
Viessmann Commander, ECoS 50210 , C track and Z scale
Offline einotuominen  
#8 Posted : 21 October 2022 20:17:14(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Sorry guys for being unclear. I’m referring to the pickup shoe of the locomotive. I used word ”grinder” since that’s what they call it in the MärklinTV english dubbed videos… google also seems to produce correct results for ”märklin grinder”…

Anyways sorry for the language barrier. Pickup shoe is the correct term?
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H0Mark5
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 21 October 2022 20:25:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,706
Location: DE-NW
What sort of pickup shoe? Which rolling stock is it for?

Locos with two sliders can be harmful when the layout has to use centre-rail rockers. Is that what your question is about?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Donb  
#10 Posted : 21 October 2022 20:25:44(UTC)
Donb

Canada   
Joined: 03/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 257
Location: Fraser Valley
Marklin locos use the same pickup shoe for analog and digital. Thats why I think where-ever you first heard this, they were referring to the motor.
Perhaps 'motor' was poorly translated to 'grinder'
Best Regards,
Don
___________________________________________________________________________________
Viessmann Commander, ECoS 50210 , C track and Z scale
Offline PMPeter  
#11 Posted : 21 October 2022 20:44:53(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Port Moody, BC
Perhaps you can refer us to which English dubbed video you are referring to and we can listen to what they are saying. I speak both English and German and have never heard of the pickup shoe being referred to as a grinder. Common terms I have heard are slider, shoe, and ski.
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Offline owidgie  
#12 Posted : 21 October 2022 20:58:08(UTC)
owidgie

United States   
Joined: 03/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 127
I would say a pick up shoe is ok for digital use.

Now a PANTOGRAPH is not. The reason being is that it is such a small contact area there is a good possibility of data loss.

Rick
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H0
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 21 October 2022 21:14:57(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,706
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: owidgie Go to Quoted Post
Now a PANTOGRAPH is not.
Good point.
More and more Märklin locos have pantographs that are not wired and cannot power the loco. This applies to motorized and non-motorized pantographs.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline kiwiAlan  
#14 Posted : 21 October 2022 21:16:59(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,115
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps you can refer us to which English dubbed video you are referring to and we can listen to what they are saying. I speak both English and German and have never heard of the pickup shoe being referred to as a grinder. Common terms I have heard are slider, shoe, and ski.


I have often seen/heard the term 'grinder' being used for 'pickup shoe' and automatically convert it in my mind to 'pickup shoe'. I have assumed it is a translation funny by Google or some other translation app.

I suspect it comes from the scraping noise that the pickup shoe makes, and can be heard quite easily in a quiet environment.

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H0
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 21 October 2022 21:29:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,706
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I have often seen/heard the term 'grinder' being used for 'pickup shoe' [...]
I can image how this appears in automatically translated subtitles, but I hope Märklin do not use that term in their overdubs (but since they had the "mountain set" in the new items brochure I won't bet much money on that).
The German term "Schleifer" can be translated as slider, grinder, or slave driver.

"Slave driver for digital operation" could lead to an interesting discussion.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Online bph  
#16 Posted : 21 October 2022 21:52:15(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 611
on another forum, someone claimed that a worn out pickup shoe created interference with the mfx protocol......
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 22 October 2022 00:23:48(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,115
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
on another forum, someone claimed that a worn out pickup shoe created interference with the mfx protocol......


That I could believe. Some pickup shoes show that as they wear they chatter on the studs, which would have the capability to interrupt the data stream.

If the wear on the pickup show is not a nice even 'polish' along the length, but shows signs of what look like a nice ripple effect like you sometimes see in the sand at the seaside, then the shoe is probably chattering as it rides over the studs.

Often a shoe showing this effect will show worse wear at the ends, or one end more than the other.
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Offline einotuominen  
#18 Posted : 23 October 2022 11:30:34(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
on another forum, someone claimed that a worn out pickup shoe created interference with the mfx protocol......


This is most likely what the whole thing is about. So analog is not that picky about the condition of the pickup shoe than in digital usage.

The term "grinder" is used here at position 15:55
?t=949 "How did that happen? The grinder made it possible. The trains have a grinder at the bottom..."


But anyways, it seems that the pickup shoe in itself has no other requirements than a general condition of it.

This was a strange discussion altogether BigGrin BigGrin

Online bph  
#19 Posted : 23 October 2022 13:13:31(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
on another forum, someone claimed that a worn out pickup shoe created interference with the mfx protocol......


This is most likely what the whole thing is about. So analog is not that picky about the condition of the pickup shoe than in digital usage.

The term "grinder" is used here at position 15:55
?t=949 "How did that happen? The grinder made it possible. The trains have a grinder at the bottom..."


But anyways, it seems that the pickup shoe in itself has no other requirements than a general condition of it.

This was a strange discussion altogether BigGrin BigGrin


Hi
the video demonstrates the use of a contact track 24994 at 15:55.

and Google Translate is a bit off sometimes, but it can also be entertaining. e.g in a different Märklin video where the 39436 was mentioned, google struggled to translate the "Hochhaxige" correctly, so it came out as one of the Märklin guys was wearing high heels ;).

Offline Copenhagen  
#20 Posted : 23 October 2022 15:42:34(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
In the start of the video the speaker also calls it an m48. It's an m84. Haven't watched the whole video. Grinder seems to be a poor choice.
Offline einotuominen  
#21 Posted : 23 October 2022 16:26:21(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
In the start of the video the speaker also calls it an m48. It's an m84. Haven't watched the whole video. Grinder seems to be a poor choice.


Most likely so... but if you google for "Märklin grinder" you get the images of pickup shoe.
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Offline rhfil  
#22 Posted : 23 October 2022 16:30:36(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 235
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
I visit the Catawiki auction site which is Dutch based and the English translations are often hilarious and require some imagination to understand.
Offline marklinist5999  
#23 Posted : 23 October 2022 17:01:21(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,870
Location: Michigan, Troy
Oh, I've never had a problem undrerstanding Catawiki.
Offline Copenhagen  
#24 Posted : 23 October 2022 17:58:13(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
In the start of the video the speaker also calls it an m48. It's an m84. Haven't watched the whole video. Grinder seems to be a poor choice.


Most likely so... but if you google for "Märklin grinder" you get the images of pickup shoe.


Well, never too late to learn something new then! Like here:
https://www.modellbahnsh...70/gb/modell_150079.html
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Offline Bones  
#25 Posted : 14 November 2022 11:23:58(UTC)
Bones

Australia   
Joined: 15/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Queensland
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Hello,

Edit: There was a confusion with terms in this thread. With grinder, I refer to the locomotive pickup shoe.

I heard or read somewhere that ”that grinder is not suitable for digital use” and it has bothered me since. What could this mean? Apparently ”that grinder” however is suitable for analog.

So is there some added requirements for grinder or it’s condition if it is used for digital (conversions for example)?

BR,
-Eino



Just to add my two cents worth the word grinder seems to be a European idiom for slider or shoe as it has also been referred to is simply the metal piece that sits under the loco and
carriages to pickup the live/active side of the power supply

Railroad/Railway Point/Switch Tie/Sleeper all refer the same things

Pick which ever one you like most of us will know what your referring to

Offline Bones  
#26 Posted : 14 November 2022 11:26:53(UTC)
Bones

Australia   
Joined: 15/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Queensland
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
on another forum, someone claimed that a worn out pickup shoe created interference with the mfx protocol......


This is most likely what the whole thing is about. So analog is not that picky about the condition of the pickup shoe than in digital usage.

The term "grinder" is used here at position 15:55
?t=949 "How did that happen? The grinder made it possible. The trains have a grinder at the bottom..."


But anyways, it seems that the pickup shoe in itself has no other requirements than a general condition of it.

This was a strange discussion altogether BigGrin BigGrin


Hi
the video demonstrates the use of a contact track 24994 at 15:55.

and Google Translate is a bit off sometimes, but it can also be entertaining. e.g in a different Märklin video where the 39436 was mentioned, google struggled to translate the "Hochhaxige" correctly, so it came out as one of the Märklin guys was wearing high heels ;).

I'll pay that oneBigGrin BigGrin BigGrin



Offline einotuominen  
#27 Posted : 14 November 2022 18:44:43(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
I’m a bit suprised that a company of this size would rely on google translate instead of professonial translation services (that could most likely mean just two inhouse employees)…
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Offline Goofy  
#28 Posted : 14 November 2022 20:26:36(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,629
Both wheels and pick up shoes use as contact via rail and stud contact in both analog and digital.
Digital power means constant power feed on the tracks while analog means when you turn up knob on the trafo you increase the power feed on the tracks.
Yes you can use pick up shoes for the digital but you must clean your pick up shoes often.
Digital power leaving faster dirt on the track.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline kiwiAlan  
#29 Posted : 15 November 2022 00:40:20(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,115
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Digital power leaving faster dirt on the track.


It's all those dropped bits messing things up ... Blink

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Offline Mark5  
#30 Posted : 15 November 2022 00:50:11(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,243
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
I’m a bit suprised that a company of this size would rely on google translate instead of professonial translation services (that could most likely mean just two inhouse employees)…


My thought exactly. I had to chuckle going through this long thread about the grinder because I happend to notice the same translation issue with 'auto-translate' option for CC on another video just today and I could clearly see that he was referring to the slider pick up shoe. So yes. YOU are correct.
Grinder is not about dremels, or motors or anything else. Its just referring to the slider.

Language is beautiful. And would be much easier if they had not become confused long ago by the likes of Nimrod building the tower.

“Traduttore, Traditore”

https://bunnystudio.com/...ting-the-untranslatable/
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
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Offline Copenhagen  
#31 Posted : 15 November 2022 01:04:42(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Both wheels and pick up shoes use as contact via rail and stud contact in both analog and digital.
Digital power means constant power feed on the tracks while analog means when you turn up knob on the trafo you increase the power feed on the tracks.
Yes you can use pick up shoes for the digital but you must clean your pick up shoes often.
Digital power leaving faster dirt on the track.


Goofy going off rails again... like in this thread:

https://www.marklin-user...ts/t47503-False-or-truth

I guess Maerklin is wrong about their own product?:
The first advantage is the fact that the so-called Märklin center conductor system has a third electrical conductor compared to the two-conductor systems. The center stud contact is largely self-cleaning and the double ground return for the electrical current via the rails offers reliable pickup for the locomotives. This make the Märklin system less sensitive to dirt compared to other systems.

From:
https://www.maerklin.de/...equently-asked-questions
(What are the advantages of the Märklin system with the center stud...)
Offline Mark5  
#32 Posted : 15 November 2022 03:51:35(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,243
Location: Montreal, Canada
Can we not start the old argument again?

Perhaps we can just talk about the slider getting dirty or not. I do not see a difference of the slider getting dirty between analog and digital and have not clue why it would be more dirty. Is Goofy asserting that there is more static somehow? Even if it were true, the fact remains that we have to keep our equipment clean at any rate. Not one would disagree with that I presume.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline Copenhagen  
#33 Posted : 15 November 2022 10:19:20(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Can we not start the old argument again?


Googling model railway and micro arcing I stumbled upon these two clips giving some explanation and tips. They're about 2 rail but using graphite on the studs in 3 rail has been a thing for years:
https://trainmasters.tv/...vity-cure?categoryId=228
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Offline Mark5  
#34 Posted : 15 November 2022 19:13:15(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,243
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Can we not start the old argument again?


Googling model railway and micro arcing I stumbled upon these two clips giving some explanation and tips. They're about 2 rail but using graphite on the studs in 3 rail has been a thing for years:
https://trainmasters.tv/...vity-cure?categoryId=228


Excellent bit of information. 4B graphite stick on the inside railhead.
Must see this 5 minute video to avoid putting on too much.
https://trainmasters.tv/...ductivity-curemp4-d9ac23

The above link should go straight to the video and not the preview to save you a couple minutes.
Thanks for posting that Copenhagen. Do you do this... does anyone reading this also use graphite on the inside railhead? Or on the studs?

I have alway been a bit concerned about using graphite for fear of it getting into the motors from the wheels and creating shorts or damage. Is my fear unfounded? I have never tried it.

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline Goofy  
#35 Posted : 15 November 2022 20:25:19(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,629
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Digital power leaving faster dirt on the track.


It's all those dropped bits messing things up ... Blink



That is what it happens when tracks oxid.
Even wheels and pick up shoes do.
It is difference between analog and digital power feeding the tracks.
Pick up shoes works too with the digital power just like analog.
The only difference is that digital make pick up shoes faster dirt than analog.
As TS did ask "pick up shoe for digital driving" to get information.
I am not really sure what competitors pick up shoes is what made of like Märklins too.
Will this "miracle" graphite fix the problem for the pick up shoes too? LOL LOL LOL

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline kiwiAlan  
#36 Posted : 15 November 2022 20:37:47(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,115
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post

Digital power leaving faster dirt on the track.


It's all those dropped bits messing things up ... Blink



That is what it happens when tracks oxid.
Even wheels and pick up shoes do.
It is difference between analog and digital power feeding the tracks.
Pick up shoes works too with the digital power just like analog.
The only difference is that digital make pick up shoes faster dirt than analog.
As TS did ask "pick up shoe for digital driving" to get information.
I am not really sure what competitors pick up shoes is what made of like Märklins too.
Will this "miracle" graphite fix the problem for the pick up shoes too? LOL LOL LOL



No Goofy, you missed the pun about "dropped bits" ... Cool Cool Cool

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Offline Copenhagen  
#37 Posted : 15 November 2022 21:10:07(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Short answers.
To Goofy. What problems with pickup shoes? (The problem is more likely in your head). (Removed unnecessary)

To Mark5.
Using graphite on the studs has been used and advocated for a long time without any adverse effects reported. I don't think using it on the tracks will cause any problems. It will only be a microscopic amount that shouldn't be flying all over the place. It would be a different story if the locomotives were driving in a cloud of graphite powder that could get into the body of the locos causing short circuits on the circuit boards.

Edited by moderator 17 November 2022 04:58:01(UTC)  | Reason: Disarming

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Offline H0  
#38 Posted : 15 November 2022 23:08:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,706
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
No Goofy, you missed the pun about "dropped bits" ... Cool Cool Cool
They can easily lead to power detonations.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#39 Posted : 16 November 2022 00:48:30(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,115
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
No Goofy, you missed the pun about "dropped bits" ... Cool Cool Cool
They can easily lead to power detonations.



LOL LOL LOL

Offline einotuominen  
#40 Posted : 16 November 2022 08:35:35(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
But when you seriously think about the dropped bits BigGrin maybe better contact on track would at least reduce the amount of interference. Surely there is some signal correction mechanism in place with the decoders / trackboxes, but how far can it take the system, if there is a lot of inteference...

So to get better contact one could increase the size of contact surface, meaning a longer pickup shoe. With longer pickup shoe there is a better chance for better signal, right?

So one could say that longer pickup shoe is better for digital driving?
Offline H0  
#41 Posted : 16 November 2022 09:04:16(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,706
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
So one could say that longer pickup shoe is better for digital driving?
Longer is better when it comes to turnouts and such. With C track there are plastic studs and insulated rails at turnouts, and locos with short sliders are more likely to stop there than those with the long sliders.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Copenhagen  
#42 Posted : 16 November 2022 10:21:58(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
But when you seriously think about the dropped bits BigGrin maybe better contact on track would at least reduce the amount of interference. Surely there is some signal correction mechanism in place with the decoders / trackboxes, but how far can it take the system, if there is a lot of inteference...

So to get better contact one could increase the size of contact surface, meaning a longer pickup shoe. With longer pickup shoe there is a better chance for better signal, right?

So one could say that longer pickup shoe is better for digital driving?


I wouldn't worry about the lenght of the shoe. If the locomotive is well constructed and nothing is damaged or worn out everything is fine. (Edit: I know that there can be issues with threeway switches and some big radius curved turnouts...).

To the thing about digital data loss. Imagine two engines running on the track. One with a power capacitator, one without. Both having lights and sound on. The moment there is a spot on the track where connection is bad the engine without capacitator will immediately have it's light and sound flicker and cut more or less out or it will just stop. If the train has enough speed and momentum, and the bad connection spot is short, the train will continue and regain motor power and light and sound. The train with the capacitator will just run over the bad spot without any difference in speed, sound and light. If it's a longer powerless stretch the train will continue as long as the built in capacitator can provide power. It will keep it's speed and all the effects through that period - but you wont be able to change anything from your controller because it runs on its own power and the settings the decoder had before it lost power and data transmission from the main system.
That's my take on it.

(Added later) In short: the constant flow of power is what matters and we don't have to worry about the flow of digital information (as I see it).

Edited by user 16 November 2022 17:13:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline einotuominen  
#43 Posted : 16 November 2022 18:29:47(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 57
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post


(Added later) In short: the constant flow of power is what matters and we don't have to worry about the flow of digital information (as I see it).


Agreed. Connection to the decoder does not need to be continous anyway.

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Offline Mark5  
#44 Posted : 16 November 2022 22:02:16(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,243
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post


To the thing about digital data loss. Imagine two engines running on the track. One with a power capacitator, one without. Both having lights and sound on. The moment there is a spot on the track where connection is bad the engine without capacitator will immediately have it's light and sound flicker and cut more or less out or it will just stop. If the train has enough speed and momentum, and the bad connection spot is short, the train will continue and regain motor power and light and sound. The train with the capacitator will just run over the bad spot without any difference in speed, sound and light. If it's a longer powerless stretch the train will continue as long as the built in capacitator can provide power. It will keep it's speed and all the effects through that period - but you wont be able to change anything from your controller because it runs on its own power and the settings the decoder had before it lost power and data transmission from the main system.
That's my take on it.

(Added later) In short: the constant flow of power is what matters and we don't have to worry about the flow of digital information (as I see it).


Trains with capacitors?? I haven"t opened a lot of the newer digital loks. Is having a capacitor a standard feature now?

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline Copenhagen  
#45 Posted : 16 November 2022 22:09:34(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post


Trains with capacitors?? I haven"t opened a lot of the newer digital loks. Is having a capacitor a standard feature now?



I'm not aware of any Maerklin locos with built in power caps. But many locomotives from McK, a Danish brand, and also ESU have it as standard.

(I have had to shorten the time the capacitators are active because else the engines will continue past my Stop signs).
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Offline Mark5  
#46 Posted : 16 November 2022 22:57:48(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,243
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post


Trains with capacitors?? I haven"t opened a lot of the newer digital loks. Is having a capacitor a standard feature now?


Well well. Too curious so I had to search for the answers instead of firing off lazy questions. Sorry.
Can this only be installed with decoders from other brands?
I feel like an idiot not knowing about capacitors in the loks to carry them over dead spots;
its a wonderful idea. The genius of simplicity. If only I could be less of simpleton and more of a genius to know what I am doing! Blink LOL
https://www.marklin.com/...ts/details/article/60974
https://ajckids.com/products/marklin-60974
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline Mark5  
#47 Posted : 16 November 2022 23:00:50(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,243
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Trains with capacitors?? I haven"t opened a lot of the newer digital loks. Is having a capacitor a standard feature now?


I'm not aware of any Maerklin locos with built in power caps. But many locomotives from McK, a Danish brand, and also ESU have it as standard.

(I have had to shorten the time the capacitators are active because else the engines will continue past my Stop signs).


Ah of course, that makes sense. What is the time frame for your stops?

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1955-65, fan of V200, electrics and steam, so hard to narrow down...
...signaling systems, yard traffic and shunting, Sommerfeldt catenary,
and station architecture (esp. stations from 1920-70).
In process: a new modular layout, track planning and drawing benchwork.
Email anytime or chat live: https://discord.gg/jAEKyTWQPQ
Offline Copenhagen  
#48 Posted : 17 November 2022 08:31:17(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 295
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Trains with capacitors?? I haven"t opened a lot of the newer digital loks. Is having a capacitor a standard feature now?


I'm not aware of any Maerklin locos with built in power caps. But many locomotives from McK, a Danish brand, and also ESU have it as standard.

(I have had to shorten the time the capacitators are active because else the engines will continue past my Stop signs).


Ah of course, that makes sense. What is the time frame for your stops?



My stop signals cut power on a single piece of track (17 or 18 cm) so I had to change the time to 1 second or less (in CV 113) - and not drive at full speed - in order to have the trains stop.

I haven't dabbled with installment of power caps. The youtuber Marklinofsweden has a video about it that you can find if you type: Tuning and Powerpacking a New Locomotive in the search field of youtube.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#49 Posted : 17 November 2022 15:36:38(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 7,115
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post


Trains with capacitors?? I haven"t opened a lot of the newer digital loks. Is having a capacitor a standard feature now?


Well well. Too curious so I had to search for the answers instead of firing off lazy questions. Sorry.
Can this only be installed with decoders from other brands?


yes, many decoders can have buffer capacitors added.
There are some locos that come with them as standard. Marklin list some G1 locos as having them factory fitted. Not sure if they have done this in H0 though.





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Online bph  
#50 Posted : 17 November 2022 17:48:39(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post


Trains with capacitors?? I haven"t opened a lot of the newer digital loks. Is having a capacitor a standard feature now?


Well well. Too curious so I had to search for the answers instead of firing off lazy questions. Sorry.
Can this only be installed with decoders from other brands?


yes, many decoders can have buffer capacitors added.
There are some locos that come with them as standard. Marklin list some G1 locos as having them factory fitted. Not sure if they have done this in H0 though.


The 37797 TGV has a small 220uf 50v capacitor installed from the factory. but my guess is that it is only intended to dampen flickering in the lights.
https://www.hovland.net/bilder/mj/501C2970.jpg
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