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Offline rhfil  
#1 Posted : 05 September 2022 14:51:17(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 422
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
In the Marklin CS3 when creating an event and selecting a signal two unusual options appear, one a locomotive with a + and the other a locomotive with a *. The Marklin 03093 manual describes the first as "Add locomotive" and the second as "Create m.u. combination" even though it is typo'd incorrectly, I assume, *. Does anyone know what selecting either one of those does? What I am trying to create is an event on a layout with multiple trains operating which effects only one train. In other words, I want the contact track to trigger a switch change only when, a passenger train crosses it. Is that possible?
Offline BenP  
#2 Posted : 05 September 2022 18:30:10(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
In the Marklin CS3 when creating an event and selecting a signal two unusual options appear, one a locomotive with a + and the other a locomotive with a *. The Marklin 03093 manual describes the first as "Add locomotive" and the second as "Create m.u. combination" even though it is typo'd incorrectly, I assume, *. Does anyone know what selecting either one of those does? What I am trying to create is an event on a layout with multiple trains operating which effects only one train. In other words, I want the contact track to trigger a switch change only when, a passenger train crosses it. Is that possible?


CS3 recognizes contact track triggers to create event, but, to my knowledge, does not recognize individual trains when they pass. However, you can use a reed switch on the track (instead of using contact tracks), so only those trains equipped with bottom magnet activate that trigger.
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by BenP
Offline clapcott  
#3 Posted : 06 September 2022 03:43:23(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone know what selecting either one of those does?

The 2 event options allow you to Post(+) or Clear(-) a name/image of a loco onto your CS3s layout diagram, adjacent to the signal (or sensor).

limitations exist as to how this is seen in the two layout types, and the function has not yet extended to the Web Browser Layout display

Operationally, some points,
- You cannot post a Loco to an item that already has a Loco - the slot needs to be cleared first.
- (while buggy) is you post a loco , that was located at another node, to a new (empty) node, the slot at the original node is cleared

The event requires a loco to be referenced first (in the event sequence) before referencing the Post(+) ( the loco speed is optional and may be cleared)
The loco is a placeholder and may be inherited from a parent e.g. a loco with a Fx setup to trigger the event.


Quote:
What I am trying to create is an event on a layout with multiple trains operating which effects only one train.
In other words, I want the contact track to trigger a switch change only when, a passenger train crosses it. Is that possible?

This is possible with your own tracking logic (e.g. use a virtual sensor as a token to monitor an items movement).

To the best of my knowledge you cannot yet directly use the Posted Loco (above) for this .
i.e. while the nodes slot may have something posted to it, you cannot have another function read this and use it for the next operation.

Happy to be proven wrong, and there is a lot of "half finished" Easter eggs in the area of events that may be brought into play at some stage.
For now the fallback is using your on "tokens" where by you know which loco is in a block because you gave it a track warrant to enter the block
Peter
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Offline rhfil  
#4 Posted : 07 September 2022 15:34:30(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 422
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
Thanks for the replies. Sad that Marklin provides features such as being able to attach the icon of the loco to an Event and show the loco identity on the layout track but not isolate which locos activate a contact so you can not automate having passenger trains enter a station and freight trains enter a freight yard. I am on the hunt for reed switches to experiment with them. They might offer a solution.
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Offline Mark5  
#5 Posted : 13 November 2022 02:58:22(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post

...
I am on the hunt for reed switches to experiment with them.
They might offer a solution.
...


I have some Marklin reed switches that I want to try out too so it would be good to hear how successful people have been with them. And what the advantages are with either using a magnet for switches or using a slider. I want to set up my layout with blocks that can be detected by rocrail and need to understand how to interface Rocrail with my CS3.

I find making even a test layout on the tiny CS3 screen a bit of a hassle. The curves seem to go wild when clicking and dragging them. Is there a tutorial for this somewhere?

Edited by user 07 January 2023 18:18:15(UTC)  | Reason: typo

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Offline marklinist5999  
#6 Posted : 13 November 2022 13:56:40(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,076
Location: Michigan, Troy
Mark 5, you need an S88 a/c feedback decoder, and if you don't have a CS3 plus, the S88 connect adaptor module. The S-88 reports the action tripped by the reed switches, or contact track, or magnets on cars to the CS3 to trigger events.
I got the big Marklin CS3 book item 03093. There are also Marklin Digital club webinars in Youtube by Curtis and Rick on various CS3 operating procedures.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 13 November 2022 22:21:48(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
In the Marklin CS3 when creating an event and selecting a signal two unusual options appear, one a locomotive with a + and the other a locomotive with a *. The Marklin 03093 manual describes the first as "Add locomotive" and the second as "Create m.u. combination" even though it is typo'd incorrectly, I assume, *. Does anyone know what selecting either one of those does? What I am trying to create is an event on a layout with multiple trains operating which effects only one train. In other words, I want the contact track to trigger a switch change only when, a passenger train crosses it. Is that possible?


CS3 recognizes contact track triggers to create event, but, to my knowledge, does not recognize individual trains when they pass. However, you can use a reed switch on the track (instead of using contact tracks), so only those trains equipped with bottom magnet activate that trigger.


This is even the big difference between a CS3 and say Rocrail or its equivalents
Rocrail knows where is which loco in what it calls blocks. The result is:
- no need for insulated stop sections, Rocrail sends the proper stop command to the loco
- you can send generic speed controls at some points on your layout. Rocrail will send the speed control directly and only to the loco in that block
- you can have any train consist move forwards or backwards without any need for a "slider invertor" or its equivalent in 2 rails. The train will stop at the appropriate location.
- you can have a block for 2 directions, with 2 signals without any wiring because the proper loco digital order will be sent in good time (triggered by the block sensors).

On the other hand a CS3 offers very sophisticated event controls BUT in total absence of knowing which train is where.
Note: I spoke about Rocrail,but other good train control s/w do the same.

Cheers

Jean

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Offline Mark5  
#8 Posted : 14 November 2022 20:14:02(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
......

This is even the big difference between a CS3 and say Rocrail or its equivalents
Rocrail knows where is which loco in what it calls blocks. The result is:
- no need for insulated stop sections, Rocrail sends the proper stop command to the loco
- you can send generic speed controls at some points on your layout. Rocrail will send the speed control directly and only to the loco in that block
- you can have any train consist move forwards or backwards without any need for a "slider invertor" or its equivalent in 2 rails. The train will stop at the appropriate location.
- you can have a block for 2 directions, with 2 signals without any wiring because the proper loco digital order will be sent in good time (triggered by the block sensors).
......


Thank you so much for that Johnjean.
"- no need for insulated stop sections, Rocrail sends the proper stop command to the loco...(etc...)"
So that is exciting. So much to figure out all at the same time, its about spending time, studying without cracking my head.

Sometimes wish there was more of a step-by-step guide. I am willing to dedicate time to it, I just want to do a small test layout with a siding or two, some signals, reed or circuit switches; that way I can learn as I walk myself through using the CS3 with Rocrail in tandem.

Having Rocrail know where the trains are at any given time will be essential for my extensive shadow yard. Most curious to understand how RocRail knows the actual train number and not just any random train triggering the reeds?

And I have the necessary equipment it appears:
Link s88, reed switches, circuit switches, CS3, m83 (and kit), k83, etc and yes the book 03093.

One of the reasons to build a test layout is to keep me from buying more than I need and to get rid of excess from acquired lots. This way I can narrow down to as many specifics as I can before and during the track planning process.

Thanks again for all the immensely valuable suggestions, comments and feedback.
Mark

Edited by user 07 January 2023 19:04:18(UTC)  | Reason: grammar

DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline JohnjeanB  
#9 Posted : 08 January 2023 00:32:35(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Thank you so much for that Johnjean.
"- no need for insulated stop sections, Rocrail sends the proper stop command to the loco...(etc...)"
So that is exciting. So much to figure out all at the same time, its about spending time, studying without cracking my head.

Sometimes wish there was more of a step-by-step guide. I am willing to dedicate time to it, I just want to do a small test layout with a siding or two, some signals, reed or circuit switches; that way I can learn as I walk myself through using the CS3 with Rocrail in tandem.

There is a step by step instruction guide here https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=stepbystep-en
There are tutorials on youtube like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf_V-Ghm0YE
There is an English Rocrail forum wherefrom you can get help here (but you need to register first https://forum.rocrail.net/viewforum.php?f=95
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post


Having Rocrail know where the trains are at any given time will be essential for my extensive shadow yard. Most curious to understand how RocRail knows the actual train number and not just any random train triggering the reeds?

One key article in Rocrail is a block, usually, a track section before a signal, with one, two or more sensors. The block can be free (no train), reserved (expecting a specific train), occupied (the specified train has arrived as reported by sensors associated with the block.
The train comes from another block (origin block) and a route when activated, allows to go from origin_block to destination_block

So basically, you tell ONCE, where (in which block) each train is and Rocrail manages the transfers from an origin block to a destination block thanks to sensors.
Knowing in real time, which loco (train) is where, it is capable of sending digital order to the appropriate loco to accelerate, slow down, stop WITHOUT any external device (signal with an isolated section, slow-down modules, etc. Signals are ONLY FOR DECORATION.

Reed contacts work with Rocrail but are not the preferred approch. The best IMO, is to have occupancy sections in Blocks (20 cm before the signal is called IN and the rest of the block is called ENTER. In this way, if a consist remains in the block, there will be no collision as the block will not be accessible to other trains as long as the occupancy remains.
Another advantage of this is (1) you don't bother to install magnets on one or other vehicle (which one?) and (2) ANY train can become a shuttle train (loco is behind) without ANY hardware change or addition. Each axle is detected (Märklin 3 rails system).

Typical Rocrail speed controls (most used ones):
- V_max maximum speed for the loco type
- V_cruise normal speed between station
- V_mid station speed when approaching a red signal
- V_min minimum speed for precise positionning of for staging blocks (stockpile trains behind each other on a single track in relation with each train's length

Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post


And I have the necessary equipment it appears:
Link s88, reed switches, circuit switches, CS3, m83 (and kit), k83, etc and yes the book 03093.

One of the reasons to build a test layout is to keep me from buying more than I need and to get rid of excess from acquired lots. This way I can narrow down to as many specifics as I can before and during the track planning process.

Thanks again for all the immensely valuable suggestions, comments and feedback.
Mark


One key to success is to start with a small, simple, modifyable layout in conjunction with a Rocrail demo layout.
I started Rocrail in late 2013 and in 2014 it was like this

Test intensively before landscaping
And in 2019 may layout was like this


If I can do it you can too even without the book BUT with patience, with the forum and an open mind.
Start small, step by step, never leave one step until it works fine, then archive the 5 Rocrail files on your PC and only then make changes
Sorry as you may see I am a big fan of rocrail (although a simple user)Love
Cheers
Jean
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Offline Mark5  
#10 Posted : 09 January 2023 02:00:32(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Having Rocrail know where the trains are at any given time will be essential for my extensive shadow yard. Most curious to understand how RocRail knows the actual train number and not just any random train triggering the reeds?
One key article in Rocrail is a block, usually, a track section before a signal,......
[.....etc above post.....]
I started Rocrail in late 2013 and in 2014 it was like this......

If I can do it you can too even without the book BUT with patience, with the forum and an open mind.
Start small, step by step, never leave one step until it works fine, then archive the 5 Rocrail files on your PC and only then make changes
Sorry as you may see I am a big fan of rocrail (although a simple user)Love
Cheers
Jean


No need to apologize for your Rocrail fandom Jean. It is your enthusaiasm for Rocrail that keeps me inspired to keep fiddling with it and reading the literature. Just trying to squeeze in everything between the track plan, benchwork plan, loco clean up and sorting of rolling stock and track, as well as cleaning up my space to fit in the layout. Just 30 minutes ago, I sold a rather nice but old-fashioned oak buffet credenza for $20 just so it could be re-purposed and open up space in my train room/library/art studio! Choices of stuff to keep and toss must be made. And I have been reading the Rocrail manual on my metro rides whenever possible.

You example of a simple layout in 2013 however, looks quite complex!! Laugh
Thanks again
- Mark
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 09 January 2023 12:10:27(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post

Your example of a simple layout in 2013 however, looks quite complex!! Laugh
Thanks again
- Mark

Hi Mark
Now, seriously, start must be simple. It just happens that I haven't found pictures of my early oval with 2 switches.
I wish you well on your Ricrail project.
Jean
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