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Offline Jags  
#1 Posted : 05 August 2022 07:30:20(UTC)
Jags

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2019(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: Kona, Hawaii
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the new Bell Can motors compared to the older 5-Pole motors. I just recently purchased a Marklin 88012 Steam Loco. It is advertised as The locomotive has a motor with a bell-shaped armature. It also has the "5-Pole" motor designation. So, what is this? A 5-Pole or a Bell Can motor?

Marklin 88012 Steam Loco

https://www.maerklin.de/...4a664cc9ad88e2632bf39735

What is the easiest way to tell what sort of motor you actually have? Can someone please post some comparison photos?

Thanks in advance!!



Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 05 August 2022 07:56:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,603
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Jags Go to Quoted Post
So, what is this? A 5-Pole or a Bell Can motor?
Motors with bell-shaped armatures can be five-pole motors. Usually they are can motors.
Can motors are usually "maintenance free" - when the brushes are worn, a new motor is needed.

In H0 gauge, Märklin used a five-star symbol for "high-efficiency propulsion". At some stage they started using the five-star symbol also for three-pole motors. Customers complained.
Now there is a nine-star symbol for "high-efficiency propulsion" in H0 gauge, used for three-pole and five-pole motors.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#3 Posted : 05 August 2022 21:21:02(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 462
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Jags Go to Quoted Post
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the new Bell Can motors compared to the older 5-Pole motors. I just recently purchased a Marklin 88012 Steam Loco. It is advertised as The locomotive has a motor with a bell-shaped armature. It also has the "5-Pole" motor designation. So, what is this? A 5-Pole or a Bell Can motor?

Marklin 88012 Steam Loco

https://www.maerklin.de/...4a664cc9ad88e2632bf39735

What is the easiest way to tell what sort of motor you actually have? Can someone please post some comparison photos?

Thanks in advance!!





If the exploded diagram is to be believed, it's a coreless/bell can motor. These are always cylindrical in shape, whilst the 3 pole and 5 pole predecessors ore more square in shape, and have instructions for brush replacement.

Does this help?

All the best


Chris

Offline Jags  
#4 Posted : 05 August 2022 23:17:30(UTC)
Jags

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2019(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: Kona, Hawaii
Originally Posted by: Poor Skeleton Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Jags Go to Quoted Post
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the new Bell Can motors compared to the older 5-Pole motors. I just recently purchased a Marklin 88012 Steam Loco. It is advertised as The locomotive has a motor with a bell-shaped armature. It also has the "5-Pole" motor designation. So, what is this? A 5-Pole or a Bell Can motor?

Marklin 88012 Steam Loco

https://www.maerklin.de/...4a664cc9ad88e2632bf39735

What is the easiest way to tell what sort of motor you actually have? Can someone please post some comparison photos?

Thanks in advance!!





If the exploded diagram is to be believed, it's a coreless/bell can motor. These are always cylindrical in shape, whilst the 3 pole and 5 pole predecessors ore more square in shape, and have instructions for brush replacement.

Does this help?

All the best


Chris



Yes, that does help. The diagram and parts list show it as Motor E279332. And searching that part number brings up this photo:

E279332

The photo makes it obvious to see how it is much different than the older 3-pole and 5-pole motors. Looking up the rear of the Loco you don't see the motor windings like you do on the older motors. All you see is a squarish plastic enclosure. Also, it runs totally different. It's a lot slower and more prototypical.

Thanks!

Offline wildstix  
#5 Posted : 06 August 2022 10:58:01(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 110
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Since the matter is now clear, allow me to share the difference from a different view 😊
As the owner of both bell-shaped armature and conventional 5-pole locos, I can tell you that the difference is in their speed performance, noise, and pulling ability.
In my fleet, the conventional 5-pole locos are generally not really good at low speed but for medium to high, their speed is great. Less noise from the motor, and the pulling ability is not having issues with 6 4-axle passenger cars (I think it could be more, but couldn't find the time to try more 😔)
The bell-shaped armature locos are generally good at low speed (really useful for making videos 😅) but their medium to high speed is pathetic. The motor is noisy, it makes growling noise in any speed, making you concern if the motor is fine or blown. The pulling ability is another area that I'm very, very concern with. All of them are struggling to pull 6 4-axle passenger cars, it moves, but very clear that they couldn't pull that load with ease.
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
Märklin Z scale (mini-club) purist but not a modeler!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by wildstix
Offline parakiet  
#6 Posted : 06 August 2022 12:05:58(UTC)
parakiet

Belgium   
Joined: 20/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 171
Location: Flanders!
As far as I know at a certain time models that were planned with 5-poles did get bell shaped motors. Perhaps this was more economical to produce.


My conclusions are: bell shaped ones have greater pulling power, need less voltage, drive slower better. This with rokuhan, AZL and Marklin loco's
Offline Jags  
#7 Posted : 06 August 2022 12:14:04(UTC)
Jags

United States   
Joined: 22/11/2019(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: Kona, Hawaii
Originally Posted by: wildstix Go to Quoted Post
Since the matter is now clear, allow me to share the difference from a different view 😊
As the owner of both bell-shaped armature and conventional 5-pole locos, I can tell you that the difference is in their speed performance, noise, and pulling ability.
In my fleet, the conventional 5-pole locos are generally not really good at low speed but for medium to high, their speed is great. Less noise from the motor, and the pulling ability is not having issues with 6 4-axle passenger cars (I think it could be more, but couldn't find the time to try more 😔)
The bell-shaped armature locos are generally good at low speed (really useful for making videos 😅) but their medium to high speed is pathetic. The motor is noisy, it makes growling noise in any speed, making you concern if the motor is fine or blown. The pulling ability is another area that I'm very, very concern with. All of them are struggling to pull 6 4-axle passenger cars, it moves, but very clear that they couldn't pull that load with ease.




So, I tried to make a comparison between two similar Steam Locomotives both being 4-6-2 configurations.

My new bell-can motor 88012 weighs 42 grams and can just pull 8 of my Orient Express cars. The wheels are slipping but it does make it all the way around my layout. It does so very slowly.

My Steam loco that came with the 8108 Orient Express has a 3-pole motor, weighs 36 grams and can just pull 6 of the same Orient Express cars. It also does so with the wheels slipping but it wants to run a lot faster.

So obviously the motors can handle the loads as they keep spinning the wheels even when the train is stalled. The issue of being able to move the train with more cars comes down to the weight of the Locomotive. My heavier 88012 can move two more cars because the Loco has more weight thus creating more traction and pulling ability.

So overall I believe that all the motors have the power to pull. All my motors will keep spinning the wheels even when the length and weight of the train cause the train to stall. If you can make the locomotive heavier it will be able to haul more cars. The new bell-can motor takes a bit to get used to as it moves so slow, but this is more prototypical and should be the way we run our trains.

I do use a Ztrack blue line snail speed controller which does allow me to get even the 3-pole motors to run quite slowly.

Steam DB Class 01 88012.jpg

Steam Bavarian S 3 6 DRG Class 18.4 8108 Set.jpg

snail
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Jags
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#8 Posted : 07 August 2022 02:11:04(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 462
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Jags Go to Quoted Post


So overall I believe that all the motors have the power to pull. All my motors will keep spinning the wheels even when the length and weight of the train cause the train to stall. If you can make the locomotive heavier it will be able to haul more cars. The new bell-can motor takes a bit to get used to as it moves so slow, but this is more prototypical and should be the way we run our trains.




Yes, that corresponds with my experience - The limiting factor always seems to be the grip of the wheels onto the track, I've never stalled a motor as a result of excessive load, the driving wheels just spin.

Cheers



Chris
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Poor Skeleton
Offline Carim  
#9 Posted : 07 August 2022 10:41:05(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 582
Location: London
In the July 2018 copy of "Tranini" magazine, there is an interesting article, "Sequence of generations in motor technology" by Alexander Hock that covers this subject.

Carim
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Carim
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