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Offline ScottyB  
#1 Posted : 16 April 2022 10:21:59(UTC)
ScottyB

New Zealand   
Joined: 16/04/2022(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: Wellington
Hi All

I recently got a new loco the Marklin 37984 Union Pacific 844, With Dynamic smoke.
It runs smoothly and looks impresive with the smoke unit. However after 5 minutes the smoke unit turns off as per the instuctions to stop it buring out, but if I try to turn it back after a short period of time on it shorts out the CS3. It also does this if you turn the unit off after a few minues, it shorts out the CS3. I tried to top up the oil in case that was the problem but it still shorts out. I tried to reset the decoder but this failed to solve the issue. Only leaving the locomotive idle for a few hours, then it seems to behave. I do have the 60101 power pack so it shouldn't be a power draw issue.

Any tips or advice?

Thanks,
Scott

Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 16 April 2022 10:45:27(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Open the body and check if there is no smoke fluid damage PCB.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline ScottyB  
#3 Posted : 16 April 2022 11:04:28(UTC)
ScottyB

New Zealand   
Joined: 16/04/2022(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: Wellington
20220416_205426.jpg20220416_205433.jpg

Here is the Smoke unit. I can't smell anything like a burnt out circit board
There is a black residue around the unit but it could be an apoxy or a seal.

Hopefully nothing major
Offline Goofy  
#4 Posted : 16 April 2022 11:37:13(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
I cannot see problem from here.
I see the black screw seems not fitted all the way down?
It could be fault with the decoder.
Warranty to fix the problem?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 17 April 2022 00:52:35(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
A friend is having a similar problem with his brand new 844 loco - his loco will run on the layout for about a minute with the smoke unit turned on then the CS3 goes into an overload condition and cuts off power. The loco runs fine if the smoke unit is turned off. Maybe there's a common defect with this loco.

We were also using the 60101 power supply to feed the CS3 powering the layout., which also had a Big Boy and one other loco running.

Edited by user 17 April 2022 07:50:34(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 17 April 2022 01:00:30(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
There does seem to be a problem with these smoke units. I have heard reports of the smoke unit just stopping working without causing the shorting problem mentioned in this thread.

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#7 Posted : 17 April 2022 09:32:19(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
xxx20220415_195236.jpg

The problem loco....
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Offline Goofy  
#8 Posted : 17 April 2022 09:33:12(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
A smoke generator cannot draw power that result overload!
We feed CS3 60 VA or 100 VA!
It is possible that decoder in the locomotive overload and the CS3 is disturbed by switching off?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline klarinettmeister  
#9 Posted : 18 April 2022 23:27:47(UTC)
klarinettmeister

Sweden   
Joined: 13/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 798
Location: Kirseberg
Hello!

Exactly the same problem here in Denmark!
My brand new 37984 causes an overload after a few minutes of use of the dynamic smoke. I've got it on film. The loco puffs and just stops for second. Then it starts again and the overload sign shows and turns of the power.
Bad burnt electronic smell. Lights still on until the track power is cut off.

I use a CS3 60226 and the 60061. I don't dare using the 60101 for track power, only lights.

I haven't got any reply from Märklin or my dealer.
I had problems with the smoke from 39027 and 39068. The smoke was coming from the wheels. I tried again after a few days and now those locos steam as usual.
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Offline eduard71  
#10 Posted : 08 February 2023 02:38:47(UTC)
eduard71

Chile   
Joined: 27/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 294
Location: Santiago
Hello,

A friend of mine had the same problem with his UP 844, I decided to inspect the locomotive and found a problem in the control board that is connected to the smoke unit in its backward.
It is clear in the photo that there is a burned component.
This loco will need to travel to Marklin service since that board is not available in the spare part drawing.
Doe’s anybody know if that board is available?
Regards
Eduardo
FB8FBDC9-0B64-4B50-B6E4-252E03447290.jpeg909ACC46-822C-4859-B4B5-E04F9F69A9F3.jpeg
Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 08 February 2023 12:58:51(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi
I discovered that Märklin on this loco used a different (early?) model of dynamic smoke with a much higher current.
I don't have this 37984 loco but users report a power drain of 2 Amp when smoke is on. This is to compare with the newer BR06 (39662) with a current drain of 550 mA.
Why on earth would Märklin allow to draw 2/3 of the available current on a CS3? Buts apparently it does! Weird.

For sure Märklin is now using this newer type of dynamic smoke unit (E335382) which is different in form from the E353931 in your loco 37984.
Yes dynamic smoke model have an auto-shut off after 3 minutes and - at leat on my 39662) - it is OK to turn it on rapidely after it turned off provided there is smoke liquid in it.

Yes usually Märklin does not ship the PCBs but rather keep them for repairs in their shop.
Maybe, talking to them, if you live overseas, they may make an exception and give you the part number to order.
Maybe there are some design issues that need corrections (happens sometimes) to be done only by the trained technical service (I use the one in Göppingen)

Sorry that is a lot of may be
Cheers
Jean
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#12 Posted : 08 February 2023 13:11:02(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

Yes usually Märklin does not ship the PCBs but rather keep them for repairs in their shop.
Maybe, talking to them, if you live overseas, they may make an exception and give you the part number to order.
Maybe there are some design issues that need corrections (happens sometimes) to be done only by the trained technical service (I use the one in Göppingen)

Sorry that is a lot of may be
Cheers
Jean


I suspect that they may make other alterations beyond replacing the PCB when it is sent back to Marklin. I don't think that just replacing the PCB will fix the problem, a number of people reported problems with this loco, and the number of failures suggest that there is either a basic design flaw or a component was substituted for the original designed in component due to cost or availability resulting in the failures.

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Offline dickinsonj  
#13 Posted : 08 February 2023 13:26:57(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
My 37984 was run only briefly because I received it just as my layout was coming down. It ran well enough but I did not use the dynamic smoke and right now I can't even set up a test track to check it out. It will still be a few months before I can do that and it will be nearing its two year warranty end, so I will have to make that a priority.

The bright side? I don't really like the loco a lot for several reasons and if it doesn't smoke properly it will be easier to accept. Sad

It is a good lesson though to not blindly trust Marklin quality these days, even on an expensive loco. How times have changed since I began collecting them in the 1980's!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline mbarreto  
#14 Posted : 08 February 2023 15:01:05(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
Originally Posted by: klarinettmeister Go to Quoted Post

...
I had problems with the smoke from 39027 and 39068. The smoke was coming from the wheels. I tried again after a few days and now those locos steam as usual.


Hello,
My BR 06 Insider 2022 and the UP 844 didn't have any smoke problems until now. I can't say the same about Albatroz as the first time I tried to use the dynamic smoke it also started send out the from below the boiler.
I thought it was because I had overfilled the smoke liquid capacity inside the locomotive. After some minutes the smoke start to come normal, only out from the chimney. It didn't happen again but I only
repeated the operation few times more and never let the locomotive completely out of liquid. I will try to empty it, refill and start the smoke function again to see if it repeats. In case it does I will let you know.

Regards,
Miguel


Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline Goofy  
#15 Posted : 08 February 2023 18:24:24(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
It is possible that two smoke generator install and start use overload PCB?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline kiwiAlan  
#16 Posted : 08 February 2023 19:11:48(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
My 37984 was run only briefly because I received it just as my layout was coming down. It ran well enough but I did not use the dynamic smoke and right now I can't even set up a test track to check it out. It will still be a few months before I can do that and it will be nearing its two year warranty end, so I will have to make that a priority.

The bright side? I don't really like the loco a lot for several reasons and if it doesn't smoke properly it will be easier to accept. Sad

It is a good lesson though to not blindly trust Marklin quality these days, even on an expensive loco. How times have changed since I began collecting them in the 1980's!


I believe it is an MHI item, in which case it has a 5 year warranty, not 2.

Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 08 February 2023 19:13:21(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
It is possible that two smoke generator install and start use overload PCB?


You can't install smoke generators because they come factory installed in this model. It has one of the new dynamic smoke generators.

Offline JohnjeanB  
#18 Posted : 08 February 2023 20:52:22(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Pardon my naive question but, if the loco 37984 is causing a short (drawing more than 3 A on a normal HO Layout as per Märklin recommendation) and if, indeed the same loco draws 2 A while the smoke unit is ON , itn't it possible that the short detection is caused by the rest of the layout drawing 1 A or more?

If this is true, then the loco 37984 would not be failing.
What do you think?
Jean
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Offline dickinsonj  
#19 Posted : 09 February 2023 02:21:01(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post

I believe it is an MHI item, in which case it has a 5 year warranty, not 2.

I considered that and for some reason decided that it was not an MHI model, but not much effort was expended because this is a very busy time for me.

I hope that you are right and then I can relax. I would also have a very good reason to run it often with smoke active, just to test it out. ThumpUp

Either way it will be at least 6 -9 busy months before I even check this loco out and the whole thing might be moot by then anyway.

Either way it is pretty to look at sitting in the yard. Cool
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline Goofy  
#20 Posted : 09 February 2023 09:28:50(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
It is possible that two smoke generator install and start use overload PCB?


You can't install smoke generators because they come factory installed in this model. It has one of the new dynamic smoke generators.



Yes i know that!
It was Märklin who did install two smoke generator.
What else?

Confused

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline franciscohg  
#21 Posted : 09 February 2023 20:29:28(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Hello
As you can see in the picture posted by Eduardo there is only one smoke generator in the loco. Mine has been working fine till now, i have run it not many hours i have to say.
Since i have had not problems i had not even think about to check the power consumption, right now i am work but tomorrow will try to find a space of time to check that, a power comsuption of 2A just sound ridiculous to me if it not comes from a faulty unit, so i am very curious about it.
you may want to check your PCB and wires for any short. Did you had the problem of the smoke coming out for the cylinders of the locomotive? That leaked fluid may damage the PCB. I had problem in my Albatros and BR02 once, they were inmediately taked apart and cleaned, found no evident problems on the units, but made me sure that everything was correctly tightened and never happened to me again.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline franciscohg  
#22 Posted : 10 February 2023 15:41:17(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,266
Location: Patagonia
Well, did a quick test, and yes, clearly there is aproblem with some smoke units and/or PCBs
At full throttle with lights and sound my 844 draws 0.16A, when the smoke unit is activated it raises to 0.55A wich is absolutely reasonable
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline AshleyH  
#23 Posted : 11 February 2023 10:13:05(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
Thought I would post it here, rather than start another thread.
I received my 37984 yesterday and have not yet tested it, as I don’t currently have a layout. But reading the potential problems, I shall lay some track this weekend.

I am encouraged that not every owner has problems, perhaps I will be lucky!

I read in the new items thread that this UP 844 is in fact produced from Broadway Limited tooling, I just found a video on YouTube of a review and unboxing of the Broadway Limited version




As you will see, the packaging is fully in the Marklin ‘style’ of box, but is black, like Marklin Insider models, so clearly a high level of ‘cooperation’ going on with this model, and no doubt others.
Still, so far it looks a great model to me. I had delayed the decision on purchasing it for some time, but of course with a Big Boy, Challenger and Mikado already in the fleet, it just had to be done 😄

Edited by user 25 February 2023 12:07:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline AshleyH  
#24 Posted : 25 February 2023 11:57:25(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
Further to my earlier post, I have hit problems……

I ran my 37984 a few times without smoke, and all was fine. Not particularly happy running over standard points and can’t cope with inclines on my Noch test layout, but OK it is a large non-articulated loco.

Earlier this week I found my smoke oil and did maybe two separate fills of 1.5ml without any issues, but being careful to turn the smoke off before 5 minutes each time.

But then today, disaster, I ran with smoke for 4 minutes to demonstrate it to my wife, we both love the steam whistle smoke blast! I turned the smoke off and continued to use the loco with lights and sound. Then the tender made a very loud buzzing noise accompanied by an electrical burning smell and my CS3 shut down to a blank screen.

Left it for a few minutes, the CS3 came back fine, and I carefully powered the loco up without sound or lights, all was fine. Then I turned the smoke on and the same buzzing came from the tender, maybe the speakers? I turned the smoke off again. Half an hour later I was able to use the smoke without the noise from the speakers/tender. There is still a low buzzing noise if you listen carefully with the sound function off but the smoke on, do others hear this? Maybe it is always there.

Here is what I think is happening. I don’t think it is a thermal cutout, I believe smoke oil is getting on to the circuit board directly behind the smoke unit. This is causing a short and a high current draw, noise through the speakers and an overload of the CS3.
I thought the burning smell was from the tender, but I think it is from the front of the loco now everything has cooled.

Smoke oil will evaporate in air eventually, even without a heat source. So I think the loco works again when the oil evaporates enough from the circuit board. So…..

I am going to take the loco body off, spray the circuit board with contact cleaner and then wrap the board in Klapton tape (heat resistant clear yellow tape) the aim being to prevent smoke oil residue from shorting the board in future. I will report back in a couple of days, once I receive the Klapton tape. I just hope no permanent damage has been done, but I have most of the 2 year warranty remaining.

Ashley



Offline kiwiAlan  
#25 Posted : 25 February 2023 12:07:53(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: AshleyH Go to Quoted Post
I just hope no permanent damage has been done, but I have most of the 2 year warranty remaining.


This loco is an MHI item, so has a 5 year warranty.

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Offline JohnjeanB  
#26 Posted : 25 February 2023 17:10:07(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Ashley
No special cristal ball here but seems to me that:
- for sure it has nothing to do with smoke liquid (My BR06 39662 has a similar, dynamic smoke unit and oil overflew once without any impact. Its current need is 0.5 A when all is on).
- the smoke fluid is similar to SR24 from Noch in which you can bathe your locos for cleaning even when powered up. It is non conductive.
- It seems that the 37984 Union Pacific Class 800 is prone to smoke unit failures (the first Märklin dynamic smoke unit).
- When failing, this smoke unit on 37984 draw 2 A instead of 0.5A (approx.) so it needs repairing by Märklin (probable design change here).

You may check the current need on your CS3 of the loco ALONE (chances are your layout draws more than 1 A so it risks to trip OFF your CS3.

Cheers
Jean
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Offline bph  
#27 Posted : 21 March 2023 19:12:47(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
A question to ScottyB and others with problems.

What smoke oil have you used ? eg did you use the recommended Marklin 02421?. Or did you use the 02420 or a different brand etc?
and did you at any time accidentally overfill it?
Offline AshleyH  
#28 Posted : 22 March 2023 09:55:23(UTC)
AshleyH

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 693
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset
I used LGB smoke and track cleaning fluid.
Hence, my guess about it being conductive, as it’s dual purpose for track cleaning.

I have my clear Klapton tape, but I haven’t yet taken the 844 apart to try it out.
Perhaps the recommended smoke oil is non-conductive, so it won’t create a short if it gets on to a circuit board.

We have a new puppy, which has somewhat delayed my train experiments 🤣
Offline bph  
#29 Posted : 04 April 2023 20:14:09(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Had a chat with Märklin support about something else, and while I had them on the phone I also asked them about the problems with the smoke generator in the 844. (since I have it and want to avoid problems). And according to the guy I spoke to, the problem is related to the use of non-recommended smoke fluid. Eg the use of 02420 and similar and/or other more creative alternatives…..

so the question is, has anyone who has only used the recommended 02421(lightweight smoke fluid) also experienced problems?

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