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Offline revmox  
#1 Posted : 06 March 2022 05:27:30(UTC)
revmox

Australia   
Joined: 26/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 148
Location: Australia, East Maitland, NSW
Hi Folks,

Can anyone tell me what is happening here ... what have I done wrong this time ...

I was given a Brawa 42865 class 213 loco and 4 Marklin EVA tankers as a birthday present - lucky me I guess.

MS2 didn't auto identify the loco so I put it alone on a programming track and used the manual process in the MS2 book. It found the loco and labelled it as DCC-3. It runs fine and all is well EXCEPT after the initial power up of the layout. If I try to drive the Brawa loco first after the layout is turned on then the half dozen Marklin locos on the track ALL move in sync with it. If I stop the Brawa and then individually select and move each Marklin loco they all behave and move independently and then I can go back to the Brawa loco and everything works correctly. Confused

All technology should be sold with a bottle of red wine.

Cheers and thanks,

Mark

Offline Goofy  
#2 Posted : 06 March 2022 11:17:42(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,028
Only one locomotive or digital accessories must stand alone on the track when you program and change value.
In this case you did changed all locomotive when you did changed the Brawa locomotive.
I show this draw picture one exemple what you should have done by isolated main track and programming track.
DSC_0011_106.JPG

If you want to reset your locomotive i recommended you one locomotive a step in time.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline JohnjeanB  
#3 Posted : 06 March 2022 14:05:56(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,146
Location: Paris, France
Hi Mark
One possibility is that all other locos are MFX and the Brawa is DCC
Recent Märklin locos are enabled to accept also DCC (address 3)
So if you drive a DCC loco address 3 all Märklin locos will respond simultaneously unless MFX is enabled and correctly received by all locos
This is just a shoot in the dark. Using a LokSound5 for the first time with my otherwise Märklin MFX locos, I found that multi-protocol can bring very funny behavior.
This LokSound5 loco could receive up to 3 contradictory orders (e.g.: MFX - specific address full speed forwards, DCC - address 3 -: half speed backwards, MM2 - specific address - stop. The ONLY protection in this case is the hierarchy Märklin decoders have: 1 MFX, 2 DCC, 3 MM2
Here is my first locSound5 project

Sound may be a little better on ESU decoders but user's friendliness really stinks on them (at least when using a CS3).
Cheers
Jean
Offline revmox  
#4 Posted : 06 March 2022 22:36:45(UTC)
revmox

Australia   
Joined: 26/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 148
Location: Australia, East Maitland, NSW
Thanks Goofy and Jean,

There was enough information in your replies to sort the problem.

Yes, the Brawa loco was identified/programmed separately - no other locos were on the track.

I found that I only had to turn the Marklin loco lights on and off or do something similar to get them to register correctly with the MS2 before driving the Brawa loco and that stopped them all moving together.

I had assumed that the MS2 would have automatically initiated contact with all the mfx locos and that there wouldn't have been any need to further link them together by sending a "driving" command - but apparently not.

I moved the Brawa loco from DCC address 3 to 16 and this has completely cured the problem.

Lesson learned - move any DCC locos off the default address of 3 as soon as you get them because Marklin mfx locos still listen on this address? Crying

Thanks again for the help.



thanks 2 users liked this useful post by revmox
Offline kiwiAlan  
#5 Posted : 06 March 2022 23:30:20(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,113
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: revmox Go to Quoted Post

Lesson learned - move any DCC locos off the default address of 3 as soon as you get them because Marklin mfx locos still listen on this address? Crying


You could also disable DCC in the Marklin decoders.

Offline franciscohg  
#6 Posted : 06 March 2022 23:47:27(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,275
Location: Patagonia
Hello. If your locos Support Mfx and DCC, and mfx and DCC are enabled in the MS2, your mfx locos will not respond to DCC sent command, even if they are DCC capable.
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline revmox  
#7 Posted : 07 March 2022 00:39:06(UTC)
revmox

Australia   
Joined: 26/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 148
Location: Australia, East Maitland, NSW
Hmmm,

I believe I have fair understanding of how digital control works but the inbuilt hierarchy and selection processes in the different types and brands of decoders and controllers is way past my level.

It seems I had 6 Marklin locos happily copying the actions of a DCC loco until they were each sent a specific mfx command.

I'm just happy to have a solution. I just want to play trains, not fight with technology.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by revmox
Offline Goofy  
#8 Posted : 07 March 2022 06:51:00(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,028
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hello. If your locos Support Mfx and DCC, and mfx and DCC are enabled in the MS2, your mfx locos will not respond to DCC sent command, even if they are DCC capable.
Regards


Märklin recommended anyway that you must disable unecessary protocols in the locomotives decoder.
You do this at CV 50 by follow the locomotives manual.
This to avoid digital interference.
I use only one protocol in the digital system too.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline revmox  
#9 Posted : 07 March 2022 06:56:32(UTC)
revmox

Australia   
Joined: 26/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 148
Location: Australia, East Maitland, NSW
Thanks Goofy,

If that's the way it should be done then I'll look into it.

Coming from a different angle - does that mean that the Brawa loco decoder might have mfx capability?
Offline Goofy  
#10 Posted : 07 March 2022 09:28:17(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,028
Originally Posted by: revmox Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Goofy,

If that's the way it should be done then I'll look into it.

Coming from a different angle - does that mean that the Brawa loco decoder might have mfx capability?


No Brawa use D&H sound decoder and use DCC and MM protocols.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Copenhagen  
#11 Posted : 07 March 2022 15:44:44(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 379
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hello. If your locos Support Mfx and DCC, and mfx and DCC are enabled in the MS2, your mfx locos will not respond to DCC sent command, even if they are DCC capable.
Regards


Märklin recommended anyway that you must disable unecessary protocols in the locomotives decoder.
You do this at CV 50 by follow the locomotives manual.
This to avoid digital interference.
I use only one protocol in the digital system too.



I've never seen that recommendation from Märklin... The standard setting that allows mm, mfx and dcc etc. usually works fine.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Copenhagen
Offline marklinist5999  
#12 Posted : 07 March 2022 16:40:39(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,162
Location: Michigan, Troy
I own one DCC Loco, several MFX, and MM Locs. so I need all protocols active. I've not encountered an issue yet.
Offline Goofy  
#13 Posted : 07 March 2022 18:51:06(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,028
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hello. If your locos Support Mfx and DCC, and mfx and DCC are enabled in the MS2, your mfx locos will not respond to DCC sent command, even if they are DCC capable.
Regards


Märklin recommended anyway that you must disable unecessary protocols in the locomotives decoder.
You do this at CV 50 by follow the locomotives manual.
This to avoid digital interference.
I use only one protocol in the digital system too.



I've never seen that recommendation from Märklin... The standard setting that allows mm, mfx and dcc etc. usually works fine.


In CS3 manual on page 41 it stand protocols that are not needed should be deactivated to avoid malfunctions.

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Goofy
Offline marklinist5999  
#14 Posted : 07 March 2022 20:10:32(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,162
Location: Michigan, Troy
yes Goofy, it says that, and also that DCC and MFX can confuse each other.
Offline revmox  
#15 Posted : 07 March 2022 20:27:34(UTC)
revmox

Australia   
Joined: 26/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 148
Location: Australia, East Maitland, NSW
I don't recall that appearing in the MS2 manual.
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Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 07 March 2022 20:46:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,275
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
yes Goofy, it says that, and also that DCC and MFX can confuse each other.
Theoretically this should not happen. mfx was designed with DCC in mind.

But the model of having different priorities for different protocols does not really work flawlessly and sometimes decoders get confused by attending to two protocols at the same time when they should obey a single protocol only.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline marklinist5999  
#17 Posted : 07 March 2022 22:27:37(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,162
Location: Michigan, Troy
The MS2 book and the CS3 quick start tutorial isn't as explicit. The big CS3 books more so.
While trying to adjust the sound volume of my DCC Roco in the set up configuration menu, the action was cancelled, but not before the sound was activated on my Jagerndorfer ski lift which has an ESU M4 (mfx) sound decoder. So there you have it! There has been no conflicts during regualr operation of either while runnning togather.
Offline Copenhagen  
#18 Posted : 08 March 2022 00:41:37(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 379
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: franciscohg Go to Quoted Post
Hello. If your locos Support Mfx and DCC, and mfx and DCC are enabled in the MS2, your mfx locos will not respond to DCC sent command, even if they are DCC capable.
Regards


Märklin recommended anyway that you must disable unecessary protocols in the locomotives decoder.
You do this at CV 50 by follow the locomotives manual.
This to avoid digital interference.
I use only one protocol in the digital system too.



I've never seen that recommendation from Märklin... The standard setting that allows mm, mfx and dcc etc. usually works fine.


In CS3 manual on page 41 it stand protocols that are not needed should be deactivated to avoid malfunctions.



But you're still wrong... the manual refers to the settings in the CS3, NOT that you change the CVs of the locomotives.
Offline Goofy  
#19 Posted : 08 March 2022 06:23:50(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,028
No Copenhagen! The manual in the CS3 tells about both digital system and the locomotives decoders, because they are talking synchronize togehter. In fact same rule for the MS2.
That´s way i always deactivate unnecessary protocols in the locomotive too. So i use only one protocol on the layout.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline Copenhagen  
#20 Posted : 08 March 2022 10:51:23(UTC)
Copenhagen


Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 379
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
No Copenhagen! The manual in the CS3 tells about both digital system and the locomotives decoders, because they are talking synchronize togehter. In fact same rule for the MS2.
That´s way i always deactivate unnecessary protocols in the locomotive too. So i use only one protocol on the layout.


The manual (pdf streaming link: https://streaming.maerkl..._Manual_EN_final-lo.pdf) says on page 41:
Important: The system with the most possibilities is the highest ranked digital protocol. The sequence of digital protocols is in declining value:
Priority 1: mfx – Priority 2: DCC – Priority 3: MM
When more digital protocols are recognized, the decoder selects the highest ranked protocol.
Note: Protocols that are not needed should be deactivated to avoid malfunctions (see page 23).

Page 23:
Shows a picture of the track settings window on the CS3 with tick boxes (on or off) for mfx, mm2 and dcc and the text in the manual says: Here, you can turn off protocols not being used (see page 41).

There is no indication of recommending the individual locomotive decoders be set to only one protocol. I know some people only use dcc and therefore only use their mfx locomotives in dcc mode - because they want total control of various CV parameters. But Märklin doesn't recommend only using ONE protocol.
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