Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Mman  
#1 Posted : 24 February 2022 14:46:28(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
110C0A2C-3553-4731-9609-A564645D36BC.jpeg
This ÖBB Vectron arrived this afternoon and was put on my small (145mm radius) test track.
It’s maximum speed is moderate but ample, low noise and controllable speed.
The method of attaching the trucks is not obvious but is not the traditional method, the transmission of pick-up current to the circuit board is different again - not the tried and tested horizontal wipers and not the V80s hard wires but vertical wipers which, like the V80, tend to restrict the free rotation of the trucks to accommodate sharp curves. Not as restricting as the V80 but why this need to tinker with what was an excellent design?
The loco has 4 lovely pantographs - but they can’t be used to collect current from the overhead line, there is no mention of a switch and no invitation to remove the body from the chassis in the instructions so one could look for one.

I have two more locos on order, the V188 which luckily doesn’t have pivoting trucks and the V320 which has. I can only hope that the V320 is going to have a better method of pick-up transmission but have a feeling it won’t.
With these last two I will have all the diesel and electric outline locos that I want *- luckily - I think Märklin need some new (or maybe old) designers and QA inspectors or a downward trend in operability will continue.

* Famous last words

For the weight watchers it weighs in at 32.47 grams.

ChrisG
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mman
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#2 Posted : 24 February 2022 20:22:21(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post

For the weight watchers it weighs in at 32.47 grams.


Thanks, Chris!

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Poor Skeleton
Offline husafreak  
#3 Posted : 28 February 2022 03:44:16(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
Thanks for your review. I really like these kinds of reviews, and the more pictures the merrier. The running impressions are of great value to me as well. And this is now where owners of this loco can post comments. You say that the wipers restrict free movement of the trucks but you also say it is running well on 145mm curves? I'm not sure if there is a problem or not... Have you put it through points, or hauling cars yet? Thanks again!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by husafreak
Offline Mman  
#4 Posted : 28 February 2022 10:58:50(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
It was just a first impression from a very quick test to check that it worked when it arrived. The test oval I used has 145mm curves, one turnout and a switching (circuit) track. On running the Vectron so it met the turnout in a facing direction as it came out of the curve the leading wheels derailed to the outside a couple of times. Going the opposite way was ok and then retrying in the first direction it didn’t derail again. You can feel a springyness when turning the trucks from side to side by hand but not as much as the V80.
Later in the week I will do a more extensive test on my larger Noch layout and see what the haulage capacitity is.

If I had studied the catalogue properly before buying I might have noticed that they didn’t mention powering from the catenary with this model.

ChrisG
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mman
Offline Mman  
#5 Posted : 04 March 2022 15:42:20(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
A95A9DC4-3DEE-462A-9916-4F2CE2103A27.jpegFA6C9ABB-DC54-4DB0-9AAB-56300727E268.jpeg402C7DF2-9A51-4909-8968-01700EA3B309.jpeg
Well, the full test of the 88234 Vectron on my larger Noch layout began this afternoon:
It didn’t get far - it hadn’t been going for more than a few seconds when 3 of the four pantographs popped up and refused to stay down. The inner circuit includes a dive under with insufficient headroom for raised pantograph.
Next, on moving over to the inner-circuit, which is mostly 190mm radius curves but has two 145mm ones, it derailed on the first 145 one it encountered, and derailed every time with either end leading thereafter.
Because the Noch has inclines the track cannot be level and this loco, along with the V80, just cannot cope with 145mm and slight irregularities. With one other exception every one of the 150 plus Z locos I own can cope with both Noch layouts’ curves and inclines. If their products can’t cope with 145mm they should say so - it is their fault for changing the design of bogie/truck mounting and pickup arrangement without -it would seem- thoroughly testing it.
My one Rokuhan Geman outline loco copes with anything.

So, the Märklin Z Vectron is pathetic for those of us who do not have the luxury of all-wide radius curves for our layouts, and again, why did they need to redesign the trucks when the 1973 variety worked so well?

If I contacted the firm would they be interested? I doubt it.

Disgusted of Guildford
aka ChrisG 😒
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Mman
Offline husafreak  
#6 Posted : 04 March 2022 20:22:16(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
I recently purchased an 88545 which has working catenary but it is the first Marklin loco I have with which I cannot make one of them stay down. I never thought about how that could restrict operations through a tunnel but I am now!
We are seeing this 'variety' of chassis designs now from AZL locos here in the US. They all look very familiar with the two halves. Probably the same company is making them for AZL and Marklin (that is a wild guess!). In the US the variety is disturbing DCC lovers as the companies that have been making "drop in" DCC boards no longer have a standard to adhere to.
I do agree that Marklin should be addressing the turning issue though. Maybe they would comment on that. I think we have expected Marklin loco's to operate on 145mm curves since 1972? If they want to make loco's that cannot do that they need to be up front about it. They have in the past.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by husafreak
Offline husafreak  
#7 Posted : 04 March 2022 20:42:29(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
Commenting specifically on the pics of your chassis, the trucks are obviously special for this loco but the method of power pick up is very familiar to me from my AZL locos. Beware if those long strips wedged into the frame ever come out (get loose). It can be a real chore to get them straight and secure in the frame again. Moving on I can think of two points where drag could restrict the truck rotation. One is those wipers, on your chassis the long strips could be binding against the underside of the metal chassis and creating a lot of pressure pushing down on the wiper on the truck. I am used to seeing the long strip pushed up by the wiper but bending along its entire length (after the mid section where it is wedged into the chassis) here it is bending up only about half its length, so the load is greater. That might be hard to change. The other is the method that those trucks "snap" into the chassis. In theory they can be pulled or pushed in or out of the chassis without damage but I always loosen the screws connecting the frame halves a bit before I do this. If the loco was mine I might try slightly loosening the screws to see iff the trucks would loosen up, also I would pull the trucks out and inspect them looking for any plastic flashing, imperfections, etc. that might be causing binding. I would reassemble them with a bit of that white grease they use (or Molykote from my supplies) for the gears on the bearing surface.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by husafreak
Offline Carim  
#8 Posted : 04 March 2022 21:35:46(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
One way to keep pantographs from springing up completely is to use the "Pantografenkäkchen" from HOS Modellbahntechnik

http://www.hos-modellbah.../sonstiges-zubehoer.html

for your loco I think you would need article ZU 15.1

https://www.1zu220-shop....er-dunkel-g::131779.html

If you hit the photo on the latter site, you can get some close-ups of the article. An alternative to buying these may be to fabricate a similar clip from scratch.

Carim
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Carim
ZmeMman
Offline Zme  
#9 Posted : 05 March 2022 01:37:44(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 760
Location: West Texas
Hello, hope all is well.

Don’t know if this is a solution for pantographs which will stay up in the running position. I found this on a z scale German forum.

https://www.marklin-users.net/up...E-847C-66419E0CE82B.jpeg

I have done this adjustment when my Quick Pik wagon pantos would not stay down and it worked for me. Perhaps there have been recent updates in pantograph designs, but it may be worth checking out.

Thanks. Take good care.

Dwight
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Zme
Offline husafreak  
#10 Posted : 05 March 2022 16:48:44(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
Yeah, I have to bend that tab one way or the other. I'll have to inspect it under magnification. Scary small...
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#11 Posted : 05 March 2022 21:25:02(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post

Well, the full test of the 88234 Vectron on my larger Noch layout began this afternoon:
It didn’t get far - it hadn’t been going for more than a few seconds when 3 of the four pantographs popped up and refused to stay down. The inner circuit includes a dive under with insufficient headroom for raised pantograph.
Next, on moving over to the inner-circuit, which is mostly 190mm radius curves but has two 145mm ones, it derailed on the first 145 one it encountered, and derailed every time with either end leading thereafter.
Because the Noch has inclines the track cannot be level and this loco, along with the V80, just cannot cope with 145mm and slight irregularities. With one other exception every one of the 150 plus Z locos I own can cope with both Noch layouts’ curves and inclines. If their products can’t cope with 145mm they should say so - it is their fault for changing the design of bogie/truck mounting and pickup arrangement without -it would seem- thoroughly testing it.
My one Rokuhan Geman outline loco copes with anything.

So, the Märklin Z Vectron is pathetic for those of us who do not have the luxury of all-wide radius curves for our layouts, and again, why did they need to redesign the trucks when the 1973 variety worked so well?

If I contacted the firm would they be interested? I doubt it.

Disgusted of Guildford
aka ChrisG 😒


This is very disappointing - the design has clearly not been tested much by Marklin and it's doubly frustrating that the problem could have been so easily avoided by having a radius on the casting where the contact strip touches. Marklin's own designs are not without their problems, but they have always stayed on the track pretty well and had no problems with their own 145mm radius curves. For all the improvements in running characteristics, this seems a real backwards step. I feel and share your frustration.

I probably would contact Marklin, though experience tells me their response will probably not be that helpful as they don't seem keen to enter into any kind of dialogue. I'm sure they would agree to take the loco back, but I'm not sure what they'd be able to do to help once they get it. Gaugemaster themselves don't seem to have any dialogue with Marklin, either. I'm sure they'd exchange the loco (which would be no help at all) but I doubt they'd be able to give you any inside information such as an acknowledgement of the problem from Marklin or even any recommendation regarding minimum radius.

Hope you manage to arrive at some sort of satisfactory resolution.


Chris




thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Poor Skeleton
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#12 Posted : 06 March 2022 12:47:47(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
FA6C9ABB-DC54-4DB0-9AAB-56300727E268.jpeg
Well, the full test of the 88234 Vectron on my larger Noch layout began this afternoon:
It didn’t get far - it hadn’t been going for more than a few seconds when 3 of the four pantographs popped up and refused to stay down. The inner circuit includes a dive under with insufficient headroom for raised pantograph.
Next, on moving over to the inner-circuit, which is mostly 190mm radius curves but has two 145mm ones, it derailed on the first 145 one it encountered, and derailed every time with either end leading thereafter.
Because the Noch has inclines the track cannot be level and this loco, along with the V80, just cannot cope with 145mm and slight irregularities. With one other exception every one of the 150 plus Z locos I own can cope with both Noch layouts’ curves and inclines. If their products can’t cope with 145mm they should say so - it is their fault for changing the design of bogie/truck mounting and pickup arrangement without -it would seem- thoroughly testing it.
My one Rokuhan Geman outline loco copes with anything.

So, the Märklin Z Vectron is pathetic for those of us who do not have the luxury of all-wide radius curves for our layouts, and again, why did they need to redesign the trucks when the 1973 variety worked so well?

If I contacted the firm would they be interested? I doubt it.

Disgusted of Guildford
aka ChrisG 😒


Digging around a bit, I have found a picture of AZL's chassis

AZL.jpg

Whilst this shares some common features with 88234, I think the details differ enough to conclude the chassis is not made by or in association with AZL. Particularly noteworthy is the way electrical connection is made between the bogies and the chassis - AZL's solution allowing full and free rotation, Marklin's tensioning the bogie more and more as it rotates.

My suspicion is that Marklin are experimenting with new chassis designs and, in this case, have committed to tooling before all of the design flaws have been ironed out. I suspect that Marklin realise that a large proportion of their customer base consists of collectors who rarely, if ever actually run their purchases which is why they feel able to release this model into the market.

No less disappointing for those of us who want to run our models and I'm now thinking 88320 will probably feature the same chassis design and same design flaw.

Cheers


Chris
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Poor Skeleton
Offline husafreak  
#13 Posted : 06 March 2022 16:25:55(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
That image is probably of an AZL GP7 chassis, it looks familiar, it has the drop in (snap in) board that can be replaced with TCS or Digitrax DCC boards. Also note the plastic fuel tank molding is hiding some of the details of the lengthwise pickup bars. Newer AZL frames are changing, notably to screw mounted boards. The OP’s Marklin chassis is familiar too. See this chassis from Z Trains Weekly.


https://ztrainsweekly.co...gn-and-groovy-train-set/
Offline husafreak  
#14 Posted : 06 March 2022 16:36:53(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
In this recent AZL video you can see the trucks being removed at about the 3:00 minute mark.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VPN8GrXHHng
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#15 Posted : 06 March 2022 17:09:32(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
That image is probably of an AZL GP7 chassis, it looks familiar, it has the drop in (snap in) board that can be replaced with TCS or Digitrax DCC boards. Also note the plastic fuel tank molding is hiding some of the details of the lengthwise pickup bars. Newer AZL frames are changing, notably to screw mounted boards. The OP’s Marklin chassis is familiar too. See this chassis from Z Trains Weekly.


https://ztrainsweekly.co...gn-and-groovy-train-set/


Thanks! I was trying to find that article!

And the chassis of the loco in the video you linked to looks very similar to the new Marklin designs so, contrary to what I said earlier, it looks quite possible they are a collaboration with AZL.

Cheers


Chris

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Poor Skeleton
Offline husafreak  
#16 Posted : 06 March 2022 17:11:56(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
And finally here is a picture of the new AZL PA1 chassis but only from the top.

https://azlforum.com/attachment/download/6428

The Z trains Weekly review states that disassembling the chassis and reassembling it got it running properly. Another example of us buying new loco's and having to fix them before we can run them! Some things never change...

Ah, we are posting at the same time ;) Trying to help a brother out, good show!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by husafreak
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.562 seconds.