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Offline HaraldOnline  
#1 Posted : 24 January 2022 09:05:57(UTC)
HaraldOnline

Germany   
Joined: 23/01/2022(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Nordrhein-Westfalen, Wetter
I'm building a new model railroad layout with my granddaughter; it's controlled by a CS3+ using MFX protocol and we've got two MFX+ locomotives (Maerklin 037897 H0 Gueterzug-Dampflok BR 50, Märklin 37806 Baureihe V 200.0 Diesellokomotive).

If we enable settings for one of the locomotives (like light & sound) and then restart the CS3+ the settings are shown in the CS3+ & still apply for the locomotives (light on, sound on ...).
After changing the speed manually (dial) the corresponding settings are lost in the locomotive (light off, sound off) but still shown in the CS3+ & we have to disable & reenable all of them.
This can't be normal, can it?

I've already updated the CS3+ to the most recent software 2.3.1.
The problem also occurs if I just use a short track with a single locomotive.
The problem happens if I reset the CS3+ to the empty or initial backup.

Any help would be very much appreciated!

Otherwise everything is working well & it's even more fun than my last model railroad from 40 year ago ;)

[Update]
Märklin support confirmed today that it's a known CS3 software problem that will be fixed with the next release!

Edited by user 24 January 2022 22:17:42(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 24 January 2022 10:50:34(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,349
Location: New Zealand
Hi and welcome to the forum.

We have just had another thread regarding problems getting Trix mfx locos to register on a CS3+ using Piko two rail track

https://www.marklin-user...os-based-on-mfx-protocol

The suggestions in that thread also apply to you

- Make sure your power supply is set to the 19v setting.
- Register your locos when they are on the programming track
- Make sure there are no interference suppression capacitors wired into your feeder track (these interfere with the digital signal).

To that I would add

- Make sure the red and brown track connections from the CS3+ are wired in the correct polarity - if they are back to front strange things can happen.

Red connects to the 'B' connection
Brown connects to the '0' connection

Also make sure the connections coming out of the CS3+ are correct as per this picture - see also the markings on the track output on the CS3+

Looking from the front of the CS3+, red connection is on the left, brown on the right

Looking from the rear of the CS3+, red connection is on the right, brown on the left.

Capture.JPG
Offline HaraldOnline  
#3 Posted : 24 January 2022 11:05:26(UTC)
HaraldOnline

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Joined: 23/01/2022(UTC)
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Location: Nordrhein-Westfalen, Wetter
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Hi and welcome to the forum.

We have just had another thread regarding problems getting Trix mfx locos to register on a CS3+ using Piko two rail track [...]


Thank you for your reply. I've got NO problems registering the locos. They register fine & I can control all aspects.

Only problem is that the locomotives lose all their settings (light, sound) after restart of the CS3+ and a manual speed change.
The settings are still shown in the CS3+ so I have to disable & reenable all settings.

Before the speedchange the effects (light, sound) work as expected.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#4 Posted : 24 January 2022 11:44:44(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
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Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: HaraldOnline Go to Quoted Post
I've got NO problems registering the locos.


I realise that, but the points I mentioned need attention otherwise weird behaviour can happen.

It may be that the decoder in the loco checks back to the controller and loses its settings for some reason. That may be symptomatic of an suppression capacitor being present or incorrect wiring polarity. You shouldn't need to be resetting your CS3+ back to factory defaults all the time.

When you say " we have to disable & reenable all of them" I assume you mean turning loco functions off then on again.

I haven't used my CS3 enough to be able to replicate the problem but it certainly has never happened with my CS2.
Offline HaraldOnline  
#5 Posted : 24 January 2022 12:07:14(UTC)
HaraldOnline

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Joined: 23/01/2022(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Nordrhein-Westfalen, Wetter
Thanks!

Power supply is set to 19V.
I read that the programming track isn't required if I'm using MFX so I haven't used one.
I'm using the cable supplied by Märklin for the C track connection.
Polarity is double checked & correct. Shouldn't a wrong polarity also cause problems with turnouts and my Märklin M84?

> When you say " we have to disable & reenable all of them" I assume you mean turning loco functions off then on again.

Right.

> It may be that the decoder in the loco checks back to the controller and loses its settings for some reason. That may be symptomatic of an suppression capacitor being present or incorrect wiring polarity.

As stated above I'm using the cable supplied by Märklin; so no suppression capacitor I'm aware of.

>You shouldn't need to be resetting your CS3+ back to factory defaults all the time.

I've only done the reset to check whether the stated behavior still occurs. Otherwise no resets are required.
Offline HaraldOnline  
#6 Posted : 24 January 2022 13:06:58(UTC)
HaraldOnline

Germany   
Joined: 23/01/2022(UTC)
Posts: 5
Location: Nordrhein-Westfalen, Wetter
I just managed to talk to Märklin customer service and was told that this is a known software problem that will be fixed with the next release.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 24 January 2022 13:08:29(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,815
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Are you shutting the cs3 down correctly before powering off? It may be that the settings are not saved if you don't go through the shutdown procedure (and wait for the loco to shut the shed doors).

Offline marklinist5999  
#8 Posted : 24 January 2022 13:28:59(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 1,610
Location: Michigan, Troy
Correctly shutting down the CS3 means using the system menu and the shutdown icon, not the stop bar button.
Offline HaraldOnline  
#9 Posted : 24 January 2022 14:40:53(UTC)
HaraldOnline

Germany   
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Location: Nordrhein-Westfalen, Wetter
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Are you shutting the cs3 down correctly before powering off? It may be that the settings are not saved if you don't go through the shutdown procedure (and wait for the loco to shut the shed doors).



Thank you. Going through the menus instead of holding the long power up/down bar had no effect. Also Märklin explicitely mentioned the "shortcut" method in it's manual so I'm wondering why this shouldn't be correct.

As I wrote above the software bug has been confirmed by Märklin for version 2.3.1 in the meantime and it will be fixed in the next release.
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Offline marklinist5999  
#10 Posted : 24 January 2022 14:51:31(UTC)
marklinist5999

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Location: Michigan, Troy
Yes, thy do say to use the stop bar to shut down! However, as with any tablet, or computer, it's best to use the shut doen icons in the system, and not the power on/off hard buttons.
The Marklin digital consultanys Curtis and Rick mention this in the webinars on youtube.
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 24 January 2022 15:12:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Yes, thy do say to use the stop bar to shut down! However, as with any tablet, or computer, it's best to use the shut doen icons in the system, and not the power on/off hard buttons.
Using the stop bar is not a "hard button". Like using the menu, it is the CS3 that shuts down in reaction to pressing the stop bar.
A hard method is unplugging the power supply. That definitely is the wrong way.

Pressing the power button on a PC or laptop for less then 1 second also is a soft method. Under Windows you can even select the action that should happen (sleep, hibernate, shutdown).
You have to press the power button for about four seconds for a hard action. The power switch on the power supply is always a hard action, like unplugging power.

Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
The Marklin digital consultanys Curtis and Rick mention this in the webinars on youtube.
They did, did they?
If so, it wouldn't be the first wrong information from these guys. Curtis and Rick are a long way (physically) from the Göppingen headquarter.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline marklinist5999  
#12 Posted : 24 January 2022 15:30:06(UTC)
marklinist5999

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What does physical distance have to do with knowledge? Curtis is a software/hardware professional.
My other half, who has a masters graduate degree in computer information and management even told me this Tom!
When I choose to shut the power off on my Dell P.C. with the power button, a message prompt warns that work may not be saved.
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 24 January 2022 16:35:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
When I choose to shut the power off on my Dell P.C. with the power button, a message prompt warns that work may not be saved.
So this is a soft action, not a hard action. Press the power button for four seconds to see the hard action: Screen goes blank and computer will be off.

Physical distance and language barrier play a role with respect to knowledge: Development team in Germany or wherever, digital consultants in the USA.

From the manual: "Pressing on the STOP button for a long time (up to 10 seconds) allows you to force the CS3 to shut down. Pressing a second time on the STOP button causes the Central Station 3 to start up again."
Shutdown means no data loss. Power off without shutdown brings the risk of data loss.

OK, on another page the manual writes: "The safe and recommended way to shut down the CS3."

Shutdown good, removing the power plug bad. The wording in the manual could be clearer and less irritating. But that's Märklin as we know it.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline marklinist5999  
#14 Posted : 24 January 2022 17:00:08(UTC)
marklinist5999

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Location: Michigan, Troy
So if the CS3 is shut down by a power failure, and settings or work not saved also bad. Soft shutdown, hard shutdown, nor physical power button not the main concern. Certain update and other actions also prompt an auto re-start.
If a Marklin control unit goes to Marklin USA for repair Rick does it.
Goppingen doesn't have a full time developer team either.
P.S., at least one member here in my state has had his CS3 stop bar fail. I don't use mine often. I use the MS2 stop button for emergency stops if possible. It sist right next to my CS3.
Offline rhfil  
#15 Posted : 25 January 2022 17:38:51(UTC)
rhfil

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Posts: 203
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
Mfx locomotives need to be registered on the layout track and not a programming track. Programming track is for working with other than Mfx locomotives. In the setup of the CS3/+ there is an option that says something about keeping decoder settings at shutdown. This needs to be set to no otherwise the temporary decoder settings such as speed, lights, etc are retained when you restart the CS3/+. This is not a problem with most of them except the speed setting. If you shut down the CS3/+ with a running locomotive on the track and a short, when you restart the CS3/+ with that locomotive on the track it will be running at the speed when the short occurred.
Finally it is a good idea to save your settings after registering any new locomotive to ensure that the data is recorded in the CS3/+ locomotive memory.
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 25 January 2022 18:17:30(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
Mfx locomotives need to be registered on the layout track and not a programming track.
You can also register them on the programming track. And usually the signal quality will be better on a short programming track with just a single loco compared to the main layout with many metres of track and many locomotives and coaches.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#17 Posted : 25 January 2022 18:52:45(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,019
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
When I choose to shut the power off on my Dell P.C. with the power button,a message prompt warns that work may not be saved.

Hi
All depends on the hardware and software
on a PC, holding the stop button forces the shutting down procedure irrespective whether all applications and system software are closed & potentially saved and permitting the shutdown). It causes a power switch off without asking any authorization to any software
This is because of a hardware circuit on the power button to shut all if held down for X (10?) seconds.

On the CS3 (same with CS2) this is a feature to close down the unit in an orderly fashion (It is NOT a forced stop / power Off but rather an ORDERLY SHUTDOWN)
So much so that I can see on my CS3, the progress bar of saving key data.
No one is wiser, Märklin just designed its CS3 hardware AND software that way.


BTW I also designed many microprocessor hardware and software. I sold systems for public transportation smart ticketing to the USA, the UK, China, Taiwan, France and many other places.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 25 January 2022 20:42:40(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Posts: 6,815
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
Mfx locomotives need to be registered on the layout track and not a programming track.
You can also register them on the programming track. And usually the signal quality will be better on a short programming track with just a single loco compared to the main layout with many metres of track and many locomotives and coaches.



It also tends to register a locomotive better on the programming track if there are a number of locos on the main track, as the mfx messages don't get lost among the other messages on the main. Registering on the programming track then results in less errors in the registration process.

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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#19 Posted : 25 January 2022 21:13:12(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
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Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
Mfx locomotives need to be registered on the layout track and not a programming track. Programming track is for working with other than Mfx locomotives.


Not sure where you got that information from because it is incorrect. Did Goofy tell you this......?

mfx locos can be registered on either the main or programming tracks and they can be programmed on the programming track. Why would Marklin build a fancy controller and then not let you program decoders using their flagship protocol on the programming track? I think maybe you are confusing some of the DCC differences between the main and programming tracks.

https://dccwiki.com/Decoder_Programming
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H0
Offline rhfil  
#20 Posted : 26 January 2022 00:25:34(UTC)
rhfil

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Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
MarklinDudes is the source of my information. They suggest using the main track to register Mfx locomotives.
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Offline Purellum  
#21 Posted : 26 January 2022 01:07:34(UTC)
Purellum

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Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,435
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
MarklinDudes is the source of my information. They suggest using the main track to register Mfx locomotives.


We sometimes hear strange things coming from Rick and Curtis; I think they know what they are talking about;
but I also think things sometimes gets mixed up before it ends on this forum........... Blink

It is possible to register MFX locos on the main track; but IMHO it is easier, safer and better to do it on the programming track Cool

( Just like you can run your H0 layout and your CS on 15V in some cases; but it works much better and safer at 19V, which it's build for LOL )

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline dickinsonj  
#22 Posted : 26 January 2022 01:24:45(UTC)
dickinsonj

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Location: United States
You can program mfx decoders on the main or the programming track but you are less likely to have registration issues if you use the quiet environment of the programming track. Avoiding using the programming track based on their misinformation is just plain stupid IMO.

They may be called the Märklin Dudes but they are definitely wrong about this one. I have emailed them with questions on multiple occasions and they have never given me any useful feedback. Based on my exchanges with them, they are far from digital experts. As Tom said earlier they have been wrong on many occasions and I would much rather follow the advice from this forum's digital experts than listen to either of them.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline rhfil  
#23 Posted : 26 January 2022 01:31:42(UTC)
rhfil

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Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 203
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
"Controlling Digitally with the Central Station 3" pg 28:"Please note that this programming track is only required for DCC or fx decoders, mfx locomotives can be programmed on the layout without endangering other locomotives and powered units. If you are only using mfx locomotives and powered units, you can confidently do without the programming track." Does not say you should use the layout but definitely states you do not need a programming track
Offline dickinsonj  
#24 Posted : 26 January 2022 01:35:13(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,505
Location: United States
Back to the OP's question. I have definitely seen my CS3 function state shown on the gui not agree with the behavior of locos on the track. If I toggle the functions off and on from the CS3 they get back in synch but all bets are off the next time you start up.

I have seen this after a reboot but I have also seen it after cutting track power and restoring it. The command data stream does not appear to always agree with what the gui displays. That is a basic programming error and I certainly hope that Märklin is working on this.

Now that I think of it, I asked the Märklin Dudes about this but they had nothing useful to say. It was after that experience that I stopped sending digital questions to them and I would not consider their information authoritative in any way.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#25 Posted : 26 January 2022 01:39:39(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
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Location: United States
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
"Controlling Digitally with the Central Station 3" pg 28:"Please note that this programming track is only required for DCC or fx decoders, mfx locomotives can be programmed on the layout without endangering other locomotives and powered units.


It is only required for the other formats, but that does not mean that you can't use the programming track for mfx decoders. I have had registration issues on the main, while I have never had those problems when using the programming track.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
I have models from Era I to Era VI, but I try to focus on Eras I & III. Whoops, that one got away from me. Let's just say I focus on cool trains, regardless of the particulars :-)
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline H0  
#26 Posted : 26 January 2022 09:32:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
"Controlling Digitally with the Central Station 3" pg 28:"Please note that this programming track is only required for DCC or fx decoders, mfx locomotives can be programmed on the layout without endangering other locomotives and powered units. If you are only using mfx locomotives and powered units, you can confidently do without the programming track." Does not say you should use the layout but definitely states you do not need a programming track


Someone wrote: "Mfx locomotives need to be registered on the layout track and not a programming track."
That sounds wrong to me when I look at the quote from the manual. Cool

And still it does not say that the programming track could not be the better choice for mfx locomotives in certain scenarios. Wink
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#27 Posted : 26 January 2022 13:42:05(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,019
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Why would Marklin build a fancy controller and then not let you program decoders using their flagship protocol on the programming track? I think maybe you are confusing some of the DCC differences between the main and programming tracks.

Hi
I think the key reason for forcing MFX programming on the programming track is the risk, if the digital signal is distorted, to program another loco or all of them inadvertently on the main track.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline JohnjeanB  
#28 Posted : 26 January 2022 13:49:31(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,019
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post

Someone wrote: "Mfx locomotives need to be registered on the layout track and not a programming track."
That sounds wrong to me when I look at the quote from the manual. Cool

Hi
This subject has been beaten to death already:
- yes Märklin states MFX locos can be registered on both the Main track and on the Programming track. This is true.
- BUT, in real life when you have a large layout with many locos (I have 32), then a new MFX registration is simply NOT working with some locos
- There is the FULL registration (when you buy a new loco) and a partial one (after you made an Update on the CS3)

In all these cases, the programming track is very hrlpful
Cheers
Jean

My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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Offline marklinist5999  
#29 Posted : 26 January 2022 13:58:18(UTC)
marklinist5999

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Posts: 1,610
Location: Michigan, Troy
Beaten to death, dug back up and autopsied.
Let me just day that the prgramming track is for that. It is isolated from the layout so that in case there are other locos. on it, their decoders aren't disrupted or settings changed when programming others. Otherwise if unecessary, it wouldn't be on the CS's.
Offline H0  
#30 Posted : 26 January 2022 14:32:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,525
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Otherwise if unecessary, it wouldn't be on the CS's.
With the MS2 they leave making a programming track as an exercise to the customer; requires an external switch.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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