Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline drmusix  
#1 Posted : 14 January 2022 17:46:28(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
I recently purchased this MS 800 in fine condition (pickup shoe and couplers not original). Early version with Type 4 pantos, bulbs to be changed from inside, "MÄRKLIN MS800" on both sides (as opposed to GERMANY MS 800).
Now can somebody provide me with a link to the parts list (not the manual; I already have a copy)? Would be much appreciated - Thanks in advance.
Here's the loco:

UserPostedImage

Cheers Wolfgang.
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by drmusix
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 15 January 2022 00:31:25(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,854
Location: Paris, France
Hi Wolfgang
I must start by apologizing because I have no access to a scanner so here are 2 pictures I took from former Märklin information to dealers dated November 1965 for repairing Märklin locos and ordering spare parts
MS800-1.png (1,099kb) downloaded 3 time(s).
MS800-2.jpg

These parts are now unavailable except at Ritter Restaurationen
Here is what they have for the MS800 https://ritter-restaurat...ves-series-800/ms-800-en
I hope this helps
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline PJMärklin  
#3 Posted : 15 January 2022 02:11:58(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,031
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: drmusix Go to Quoted Post
... Now can somebody provide me with a link to the parts list (not the manual; I already have a copy) ...


Hello Wolfgang,

This might also help you :

https://ttn-shop.com/marklin-part-list_ms800.php
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by PJMärklin
Offline drmusix  
#4 Posted : 15 January 2022 09:09:04(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Wolfgang
I must start by apologizing because I have no access to a scanner so here are 2 pictures I took from former Märklin information to dealers dated November 1965 for repairing Märklin locos and ordering spare parts

I hope this helps
Jean

Thank you, Jean. That's exactly what I need because I want to know the part ID numbers. Problem with the loco is, the motor is running smoothly but she doesn't move so there's a problem with some gear wheel. Will report on my findings.
Wolfgang

Offline drmusix  
#5 Posted : 15 January 2022 09:10:36(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: drmusix Go to Quoted Post
... Now can somebody provide me with a link to the parts list (not the manual; I already have a copy) ...


Hello Wolfgang,

This might also help you :

https://ttn-shop.com/marklin-part-list_ms800.php

Thanks, I'm already a customer there Smile
Wolfgang

Offline drmusix  
#6 Posted : 15 January 2022 10:14:05(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Wolfgang
I must start by apologizing because I have no access to a scanner so here are 2 pictures I took from former Märklin information to dealers dated November 1965 for repairing Märklin locos and ordering spare parts

I hope this helps
Jean

Jean, may I ask you this favour: could you please do a close-up photo of the wheel arrangement part of this page? Thanks in advance -
Wolfgang

UserPostedImage

Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 15 January 2022 11:55:11(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,854
Location: Paris, France
Hallo Wolfgang
Here it is
MS800 Engrenages.jpg
I am very curious to know what is happening
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline drmusix  
#8 Posted : 15 January 2022 12:27:13(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hallo Wolfgang
I am very curious to know what is happening
Cheers
Jean

Thank you so much !! Will report back.
Cheers - Wolfgang.
Offline drmusix  
#9 Posted : 15 January 2022 13:40:15(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
I think the culprit is the Schleppschalter (sorry - can't translate that) which seems to get no contact to either side when activating the switch mechanism. I'm not familiar with this special item (which were only used for a short time in TP, DT, and MS, but you know that of course) and this is my first loco with this speciality. How is that small toggle (circled) supposed to move? It seems to be able to move upside/down and left/right. The Motor is running fine, everything seems to be clean with no zincpest but as I said before, it doesn't move (and while they were lighning up at first, the bulbs no longer light up).
Any ideas?

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Cheers, Wolfgang.

Edit: The wheels move smoothly when carefully turned by hand so I first thought there was a non-contact problem between two gear wheels, but I don't see any problem with those ...
Offline JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 15 January 2022 17:37:52(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,854
Location: Paris, France
Hi Wolfgang
Here is a close-up of my DL800 (1950) and its trailing contacts (Schleppschalter).
DL800 Scheppschleifer.png
They were on all larger Märklin locos until 1951 or 1952.
As you may see the contact tongue is pushed by a spring to have friction and, depending on the rotating direction, to make contact with one contact plot or the other.
Try to repair it so that there is friction with the axle and not (or less) with the frame.
The trailing contact is what gives value to your early MS800 model, so I suggest to repair it (should not be that difficult).
Check that no wire gets in the way and keep lubrification in this area to a minimum.

Note: Märklin was very found of these friction contacts and of clutches (to limit the torque) on the turntable 7186 (2 of them) and on the crane 7051 (2 of them I think)

Cheers

Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline drmusix  
#11 Posted : 15 January 2022 17:47:17(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Thanks a lot, Jean. I'll probably have to remove the frame then to get access to the spring, hope it's not broken. Will report back. Thanks again, much appreciated!
Wolfgang.
Offline drmusix  
#12 Posted : 16 January 2022 11:01:25(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Still only minor improvements; she runs sometimes and then stops again while the motor keeps running (with normal sound). So wouldn't that mean there's (on-and-off) missing interaction between two gear wheels? But I can't put my finger on it ... yet. Maybe it's just one of them which is loose on its axle?
Plus I can't access the spring as I don't see how to remove the frame (if necessary at all?).
Cheers, Wolfgang.
Offline drmusix  
#13 Posted : 16 January 2022 11:13:23(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
I understand the trailing contact (Schleppschalter) is responsible for the light (front or reverse) only? It sits on an axle (pic 1) which is driven by its own gear wheel (pic 2) thus making contact via the spring either to the left or the right side. Contacts are clean, light is only flickering so I assume the spring tension is weak. But: this has nothing to do with the loco running, hasn't it?

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

When I carefully move the traction wheels by my thumbs everything moves correctly.
Wolfgang.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#14 Posted : 16 January 2022 12:32:50(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,854
Location: Paris, France
Hi Wolfgang
Yes the trailing contact is used only to light up the bulbs in the appropriate direction. The motor is permanently connected to the slider on one side while one of the static windings is connected to ground via the direction relay.
Note: on these old relays, there are 4 positions: forwards, stop with lights on, reverse, stop with lights on
If I understand you correctly, sometimes the motor keeps on running while the loco stops:
- either it stops while the wheels are not turning. This means that some gear is either not aligned with the next one or one gear is severely damaged (never happened to me). Another possibility is one of the gears is slipping against its axle not transferring the torque to the next one. But all this is contradicted by the fact you can rotate the entire mechanism from the wheels.
- or it stops while the wheels are rotating because of a friction somewhere.
But the MS800 has 8 driving wheels so some pulling power even w/o wheel tires

Another possibility is that the motor stops and what you hear is the "Perfekt" direction relay. If this is true, you need to check the brushes, clean them, clean the brush holder inside using a cotton swab (once you have remove some quantity of cotton). The brushes are the normal diameter ones (60030) with a copper mesh and another in graphite.

Regarding the trailing contact, my advice is to clean the spring and the contact arm using lighter fluid with a thin brush and then dry the part. Lubricate only a little.

I am puzzled. I hope you will fix it. Sorry for the things I tell you know already
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline drmusix  
#15 Posted : 16 January 2022 12:39:12(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Wolfgang

Another possibility is that the motor stops and what you hear is the "Perfekt" direction relay.

Regarding the trailing contact, my advice is to clean the spring and the contact arm using lighter fluid with a thin brush and then dry the part. Lubricate only a little.
Jean

Thanks again!
It's definitely not the Perfect relay but the "normal" motor sound so I'm pretty sure it's to do with the gear wheels. Need to find out how to remove the motor shield (which is quite different from the other 800 motors I have). It's probably one of the "central" connection wheels as the ones which are accessible from the base all lock perfectly.
Cheers & merci
Wolfgang.
Offline drmusix  
#16 Posted : 16 January 2022 12:49:05(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
This means that some gear is either not aligned with the next one

This is probably what's happening, and it must be the one which is aligned/connected with the motor. I usually open and clean the 800 motors when I have purchased an old loco so it's not a problem for me to do, but as I said the earlier MS800 motors have this large "Pertinax" shield which seems to be fixed in a special way.
W.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#17 Posted : 16 January 2022 13:19:18(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,854
Location: Paris, France
Hi Wolfgang
To remove the brush holder and its large Pertinax plate you need to:
  • remove the brushes
  • remove the 3 screws pointed by red arrows
    Sans titre.png
  • carefully pull the whole brush holder unit without damaging the thin copper wires (3 connecting to the direction relay and 2 with the inductor coils. I advise to leave the rotor to the back with the frame. This operation is probably harder now because the yellow (light) and red plastic (direction switch) tubing may have hardened a bit. The trailing contact tongue may be in the way but has a play to allow the extraction of the brush holder unit

Bonne chance mon ami
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline drmusix  
#18 Posted : 16 January 2022 14:16:25(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Merci bien, Jean !! Will have to wait until tomorrow, I'll report back.
Wolfgang.
Offline drmusix  
#19 Posted : 17 January 2022 10:37:40(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Update: after cautiously cleaning the gear wheel (shaft) and collector the loco actually runs ... albeit only in one direction and not every time. Still sometimes the motor runs in "stand-still" (like a car with mechanical clutch disengaged?), but I still don't see which gear wheel loses contact and why ... ??? At least it's entertaining, and as the loco is older than me she's allowed to act up sometimes.
Anyway thanks again Jean. Will keep you updated.
Cheers Wolfgang.

UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by drmusix
Offline kiwiAlan  
#20 Posted : 17 January 2022 18:11:31(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,554
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: drmusix Go to Quoted Post
Update: after cautiously cleaning the gear wheel (shaft) and collector the loco actually runs ... albeit only in one direction and not every time. Still sometimes the motor runs in "stand-still" (like a car with mechanical clutch disengaged?), but I still don't see which gear wheel loses contact and why ... ??? At least it's entertaining, and as the loco is older than me she's allowed to act up sometimes.
Anyway thanks again Jean. Will keep you updated.
Cheers Wolfgang.


This sounds like one of the gears has teeth missing, either the one that engages in with the rotor, or the one that is the last one in the chain down to the wheels, and also operates the change over switch for the lights that you have also got trouble with. My pick would probably be the latter, but you may be able to spot the culprit by removing the brushes, and turning the wheels by hand while looking at the gears. At least doing this, things move past your eyes slow enough to see things. BigGrin

My pick would be the gear that is directly driven by the armature, and you can see that one hiding down in the dark in the second photo in your post #13 above. If it was the gear that drives the two axles and the changeover switch there would be points at which it doesn't drive the forward set of axles, then another point where it doesn't drive the rear set of axles.

There is another possibility, and that is the hole in the middle of one of the gears is so worn from lack of lubrication over the years that the gear runs at an angle and disengages from another gear and could produce the symptom you are seeing. It may be worth probing around with some tweezers to see if the gears will sit at an angle that could do this.

The loco does look to be a really nice find. Well done for spotting it.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline drmusix  
#21 Posted : 17 January 2022 18:24:08(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
the one that is the last one in the chain down to the wheels


Seems this one is the culprit: while it doesn't show any missing teeth though, it sometimes loses the "grip" as it moves a tiny bit vertically - never seen something like that. But on the other hand it's not loose on its axle ... but I think I will somehow fix it. The overall condition of the loco is great. No zincpest anywhere.
Cheers, Wolfgang.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#22 Posted : 17 January 2022 18:41:49(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,554
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: drmusix Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
the one that is the last one in the chain down to the wheels


Seems this one is the culprit: while it doesn't show any missing teeth though, it sometimes loses the "grip" as it moves a tiny bit vertically - never seen something like that. But on the other hand it's not loose on its axle ... but I think I will somehow fix it. The overall condition of the loco is great. No zincpest anywhere.
Cheers, Wolfgang.


OK, that sounds as though the hole has worn oval for some reason, enough that it disengages from the gear above it. It could also be related to the shaft that goes through to the changeover switch, and why that doesn't work.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline river6109  
#23 Posted : 18 January 2022 13:27:05(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,852
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Have you looked at the gauge of the powered axle how far it is away from the driving cogwheel., there is s imple method of figuring out: lay the loco on one side so that the driving wheel is close to the driving cog-wheel, connect 2 wires on to the chassis the other to the slider and see if the loco wheels rotate, and than move it onto the other side and see what happens than.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline drmusix  
#24 Posted : 18 January 2022 13:47:56(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Have you looked at the gauge of the powered axle how far it is away from the driving cogwheel., there is s imple method of figuring out: lay the loco on one side so that the driving wheel is close to the driving cog-wheel, connect 2 wires on to the chassis the other to the slider and see if the loco wheels rotate, and than move it onto the other side and see what happens than.

John


Yes, here I think is the problem. Not only has this axle more sideways movement than the others, but also the small wheel which has the spring for the "Schleppschaltung" moves a little bit anti-clockwise (red curved arrow).

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Should I try to narrow the powered axle's wheels distance ?
Cheers
Wolfgang.

edit: The axle should be accessible by removing the slider, and then can simply removed because these were just "bedded" in a metal tube inside the frame in this model. So that might work - I hope?
Offline drmusix  
#25 Posted : 18 January 2022 14:15:24(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
... and while we're at it, please help me to translate these two things as my English is so limited.
The red arrow marks the "Spurkranz", while the white one points to the "Vorlauf-Achsträger" ... how are these called in English, please?

UserPostedImage
Offline drmusix  
#26 Posted : 18 January 2022 15:11:05(UTC)
drmusix

Germany   
Joined: 16/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Bayern, Kaufbeuren
BTW here she's seen running (without front lights, though) so there's hope I guess.
https://www.instagram.co...m_ymjfAo35LV1BkwuFwVMs0/
I hope it's ok for me to link to my Instagram - if not please delete!
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2022, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.897 seconds.