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Offline McLae  
#1 Posted : 15 May 2006 10:19:31(UTC)
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McLae


Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,575
Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX
There is a patent attack against JMRI. Some bozo is claiming that JMRI violates a patent.

The writer of JMRI needs our help. He is counter-suing and declaring the patent invalid. To do that he needs proof that other software was in existence before 1998.

Full details are on Groklaw:
http://www.groklaw.net/a...?story=20060514233436196

Any help you can give?

Note: I have no interest in JMRI. Just open source software free from bad patents.[:I]
The McLae
IB digital, DB, OBB, SBB epII-V
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Offline MärCo  
#2 Posted : 15 May 2006 10:21:43(UTC)
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MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
Can you explain that a little bit more ?
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
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Offline frost242  
#3 Posted : 15 May 2006 10:40:41(UTC)
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frost242

France   
Joined: 05/07/2005(UTC)
Posts: 60
Software patents will kill oss. I don't know how to help, but I'll gonna participate to any demonstration against those patents. Thanks for the information McLae.
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Offline McLae  
#4 Posted : 15 May 2006 18:22:40(UTC)
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McLae


Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,575
Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX
A man named Johnson wrote JMRI some years ago to control his trains with a computer. He used Java and tried to be computer and controler neutral, meaning that his software would run on several operating systems and work with several controllers (6051, IB, etc).

Some time later, he offered his software as an open source project. That means each and every one of us could download the entire software and make what changes we could think of. Some of these changes made it back into the actual project.Cool

Now, someone has produced a patent[B)] that says the patent owner owns the idea of controlling trains with computers, and is asking Mr. Johnson for more than $200,000.00. (Don't know what that is in Teuros, but it is way more than 160.000,00[:0])

Mr. Johnson is asking for 'prior art' examples. This means if you know of computer software that controls trains before the patent was filed, we can prove that the patent is invalid.

Why do we care? If the patent is upheld, and you write a computer program to interface with the IB or CS, you must pay money to the patent holder. Even if it is for your own use. Either pay or hire a Lawyer and have a fight in Court (May cost more to fight than to pay lawyers[xx(]).

The article on Groklaw has more information.

The first thing that popped into my mind is: how long have the members here been writing software?
I.E., when was Kplopper first written?
The McLae
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Offline viragoLDR  
#5 Posted : 15 May 2006 18:53:16(UTC)
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viragoLDR


Joined: 12/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 703
Location: ,
Hmm.. I saw a train control program way back on the c64 once, I can't even remember how long ago that was. The source code was in some computer magazine at the time, must've been about 15-16 years ago.

That said, patenting something that's been made before doesn't necesarrily make a patent invalid. A good example is Nintendo and software emulators. For many many years there's been emulators that allowed you to play NES/SNES/N64/GB/GBA etc. games on your PC. Long after all those programs were released, Nintendo decided to patent "emulating" of their consoles. This is a valid patent, eventhough the actual idea of emulating had existed for a long time.

That said, the question is, what exactly is the patent, and what exactly of that patent is being infringed? If the patent is just controlling trains by computer, then all the other people making train control software should also have to pay patents, but I haven't heard anything of that. If the patent is more detailed, for example "controlling trains by computer using Java", then it'll be difficult.

Of course, there's many ridiculous patents and not just software patents either ;)
- Martijn
(early planning : H0-scale Era I K.Bay.sts.b)
(active planning : N-scale mixed late Era Japanese)
(possibly something Z-scale as well ;))
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Offline Munich 1860  
#6 Posted : 15 May 2006 23:17:08(UTC)
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Munich 1860

Germany   
Joined: 04/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,062
Location: Neu-Ulm, Bavaria
Thomas,

please be aware that I am an absolute idiot regarding a) software writimg and b) American judicial system ....

But please check this site. Dr. König describes all sorts of digital changes within the Märklin digital system, the site goes back to 1998, and I am sure he has written software, the way this man thinks .....

Make sure to get into contact with him, even if you can't find anything on this page at first glance !!!!

http://home.arcor.de/dr.koenig/digital/digital.htm

Many regards,

Hans
I like M-track and my things that run on it were built between 1959 and 1972.
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 15 May 2006 23:34:52(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,460
Location: DE-NW
I had a look at the patent registered in Germany.
As far as I can tell there is one innovation behind the patent: controlling the loco from several remote places and having a central controller that caches and queues the commands sent from the loco controllers.
Therefore M* Digital (introduced 1986) should not be in danger.

Having a CU and several controllers might be a suitable piece of "prior art" (provided there's a queue in the CU - but I think there must be one coz it's the obvious way to do it).

I'm not sure if this is worth a patent, because caching is common in computers. Putting commands in a queue is obvious if there are several sources of commands.
I'm not sure if you need a computer for a "prior art" example in this case. And the maximum distance between a M* control and the CU can be 6 meters - I call this a remote connection.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline jerdenberg  
#8 Posted : 16 May 2006 19:31:27(UTC)
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jerdenberg

Netherlands   
Joined: 10/01/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,025
Location: Den Helder, Noord-Holland
The topic has been discussed before
here

Jeroen
Figomima division, UP; mostly figment of my imagination yet.
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Offline McLae  
#9 Posted : 16 May 2006 20:02:20(UTC)
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McLae


Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,575
Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX
You are correct!

My info came from Groklaw, which is following the SCO vs IBM litigation. Also with threads on DRM and Patent lawsuits.

From the comments, there is plenty of 'prior art' the JMRI has on it's side. [Panic mode = OFF][:I]
The McLae
IB digital, DB, OBB, SBB epII-V
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