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Offline Vedat560  
#1 Posted : 10 November 2021 13:32:17(UTC)
Vedat560


Joined: 10/11/2021(UTC)
Posts: 6
Dear All,

I am a new user in this forum and here is my first question:

I have a basic 2-rail DCC system (N Gauge) which I have up to now run with a Fleischmann Multimaus. I now want to go into automation and consider buying the CS3.

For occupancy detection, I'm planning to use a combination of L88 Module and S88DC decoders, but in the L88 manual it reads "Connections to two-rail track systems, independent of the gauge only with Reed Switches" while the manual for S88DC show the track connection is done normally without a Reed Switch.

An experienced friend of mine says reed switches and magnets are a thing of the past for occupancy detection. Moreover, it doesn't make sense that L88 needs reed switches while S88 does not even though the two items are designed to work in combination when using CS3.

If that is really the case, it means I have to buy the CS3 Plus and connect S88s directly to it, without using L88 at all, thus overcome the problem.

If that is not possible, it seems I would need to buy ESU Occupancy detectors, but not sure in that case if I would have to switch the control unit also from Maerklin to ESU.

I will appreciate any input on this subject.

Thanks,
Vedat
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Vedat560
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 10 November 2021 13:43:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Welcome to the forum.
Originally Posted by: Vedat560 Go to Quoted Post
For occupancy detection, I'm planning to use a combination of L88 Module and S88DC decoders, but in the L88 manual it reads "Connections to two-rail track systems, independent of the gauge only with Reed Switches" while the manual for S88DC show the track connection is done normally without a Reed Switch.
The English translations sometimes do not make sense as the real message got lost in translation.
Maybe the L88 manual was written before the introduction of the S88DC modules.

You do not need relays when using the S88DC modules.
You can use relays directly with the L88 instead of using S88DC modules.

When using relays with three-rail, the relay can share a common ground with the outer rail. For two-rail there cannot be a common ground between the relay and one of the rails. And the other options shown - like contact track and circuit track - are not available for two-rail.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline fkowal  
#3 Posted : 10 November 2021 23:45:57(UTC)
fkowal

Canada   
Joined: 01/02/2012(UTC)
Posts: 69
Location: Toronto
Vedant, the translation is confusing.
I believe the L88 is referring to the requirement of a relay for occupancy detection in two rail systems when the S88DC is not used. This means you are using the 16 wire ports on the Link88.
Go to www.maerklin.de. Search for S88DC, or 60882 and select the "Manual" tab. This calls up the user's manual and it shows the use of a S88DC in combination with a Link88 and a CS3.
Your goals are achievable.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 11 November 2021 00:43:37(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi Vedat
Originally Posted by: Vedat560 Go to Quoted Post
For occupancy detection, I'm planning to use a combination of L88Module and S88DC decoders, but in the L88 manual it reads "Connections to two-rail track systems, independent of the gauge only with Reed Switches" while the manual for S88DC show the track connection is done normally without a Reed Switch.

First I am not a 2 rail specialist although long time ago (1975 to 1982) I had an N scale layout with current detection (French manufacturer Lybe). So here is my understanding on the Märklin S88 for 2 rails DIGITAL.

The manual is available here (english sections from page 8 until 11 )https://static.maerklin....1d49346e751579266054.pdf

The S88 DC (60882) has 16 current-sensing entries (5 mA or more) grouped on 2 blocs sharing the same common.
There is a confusion here because in normal 2 rails you have to swap the poles to change the loco's direction. This is not the case in digital 2 rails.
In case you use separate feed circuits (booster) then the current sensor return MUST be connected to the appropriate booster.
Already in HO you may have a middle size layout with only one feeding source (I have 32 locos sound digital HO fed by one CS3 and one 60101)

Sorry for the long explanation but you can use the current-sensing feature in 2 rails and in combination with resistive axles all vehicles are detected OK.
In those days of my N scale layout, the axles were made resistive by using a graphite spray used on CRTs to have a resistor for each axle of approx 10 kOhms
Now, some are selling N scale axles with a SMD resistor on it. Graphite sprays are still available. Spray some paint in a bottle cap and use a small brush to apply the paint over the axle insulation ring AND LET IT FULLY DRY before use. Check the resistor value. Finished
So that the little I know on the subject. I hope this helps.
Cheers
Jean
Offline Vedat560  
#5 Posted : 11 November 2021 10:04:51(UTC)
Vedat560


Joined: 10/11/2021(UTC)
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Vedat
Originally Posted by: Vedat560 Go to Quoted Post
For occupancy detection, I'm planning to use a combination of L88Module and S88DC decoders, but in the L88 manual it reads "Connections to two-rail track systems, independent of the gauge only with Reed Switches" while the manual for S88DC show the track connection is done normally without a Reed Switch.

First I am not a 2 rail specialist although long time ago (1975 to 1982) I had an N scale layout with current detection (French manufacturer Lybe). So here is my understanding on the Märklin S88 for 2 rails DIGITAL.

The manual is available here (english sections from page 8 until 11 )https://static.maerklin....1d49346e751579266054.pdf

The S88 DC (60882) has 16 current-sensing entries (5 mA or more) grouped on 2 blocs sharing the same common.
There is a confusion here because in normal 2 rails you have to swap the poles to change the loco's direction. This is not the case in digital 2 rails.
In case you use separate feed circuits (booster) then the current sensor return MUST be connected to the appropriate booster.
Already in HO you may have a middle size layout with only one feeding source (I have 32 locos sound digital HO fed by one CS3 and one 60101)

Sorry for the long explanation but you can use the current-sensing feature in 2 rails and in combination with resistive axles all vehicles are detected OK.
In those days of my N scale layout, the axles were made resistive by using a graphite spray used on CRTs to have a resistor for each axle of approx 10 kOhms
Now, some are selling N scale axles with a SMD resistor on it. Graphite sprays are still available. Spray some paint in a bottle cap and use a small brush to apply the paint over the axle insulation ring AND LET IT FULLY DRY before use. Check the resistor value. Finished
So that the little I know on the subject. I hope this helps.
Cheers
Jean


Thank you for your inputs. I would like to address all 3:

To Tom:
It doesn't seem to be a translation issue, because German section also writes the same.
If you are referring to "reed switch" by saying "relay", yes, the S88 manual does not designate any reed switches. I later noticed that the manual for L88 says in the introduction section that the L88 can be used in 2-rail systems only with reed contacts.

So, in my case I have to use CS3+ so that I can connect S88s directly and eliminate L88, thus reed contacts along with it.

To fkowal:
Since I don’t want to use reed switches, it would be pointless to connect S88s to CS3 via L88, because all 16 terminals of the L88 would be left unused. In this case I should be able to use CS3+ and connect S88s to it directly. I hope this is what you are referring to by saying “your goals are achievable”

To Jean:
My layout is not a big one, so I don’t think I will need a booster, which would simplify connection of current sensors.
Thank you for the tip on applying resistance on the axles.
All the above leads me to my final question, which may sound stupid to experienced modellers, but after all, I am a newbie…

S88 Connection.png

In the above drawing, since the block section is isolated from the rest of the track, the decoder detects presence of a loco on that section, but to keep the loco moving, does it also feed current to the blocked track section?

Thx
Vedat


Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 11 November 2021 12:09:59(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi Vedat

"In the above drawing, since the block section is isolated from the rest of the track, the decoder detects presence of a loco on that section, but to keep the loco moving, does it also feed current to the blocked track section?"
Yes it does feed the rest of the isolated track section. Also notice, if you use stop sections, you must use use a 1.5 kOhm resistor between the current sensing zone and the stop zone.
If you use a train control software like Rocrail, you don't need those stop sections and the resistors, thus simplifying the wiring.

Only restrictions are:
- there is a small voltage drop (0.6 to 1.2 V) because of the current sensing circuit (you may notice a very small slow-down on some locos)
- the maximum current is limited by the diode current capacity (better avoid derailing in current-sensing areas)

Cheers
Jean
Offline Vedat560  
#7 Posted : 12 November 2021 10:43:07(UTC)
Vedat560


Joined: 10/11/2021(UTC)
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Vedat

"In the above drawing, since the block section is isolated from the rest of the track, the decoder detects presence of a loco on that section, but to keep the loco moving, does it also feed current to the blocked track section?"
Yes it does feed the rest of the isolated track section. Also notice, if you use stop sections, you must use use a 1.5 kOhm resistor between the current sensing zone and the stop zone.
If you use a train control software like Rocrail, you don't need those stop sections and the resistors, thus simplifying the wiring.

Only restrictions are:
- there is a small voltage drop (0.6 to 1.2 V) because of the current sensing circuit (you may notice a very small slow-down on some locos)
- the maximum current is limited by the diode current capacity (better avoid derailing in current-sensing areas)

Cheers
Jean


Hi Jean,

Thank you for your response. I'm planning to use Train Controller software. Would it still not be necessary to use stop sections and resistors when using TC software?

Thx,
Vedat
Offline JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 12 November 2021 11:46:04(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi Vedat
Not 100% sure but usually train control software like Train Controller feed on collection data on sensors and command locos by digital orders thus making stop sections useless. This is for sure the case with Rocrail which is an excellent software for all systems in (30+ various digital units) 20+ languages and a free donation mode (you first use it FOR FREE and then you donate what you want, when you want. The very best software in my opinion
Here it is in operation on my layout with a CS3

Cheers
Jean
Offline PeFu  
#9 Posted : 12 November 2021 12:32:42(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,210
Originally Posted by: Vedat560 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Vedat

"In the above drawing, since the block section is isolated from the rest of the track, the decoder detects presence of a loco on that section, but to keep the loco moving, does it also feed current to the blocked track section?"
Yes it does feed the rest of the isolated track section. Also notice, if you use stop sections, you must use use a 1.5 kOhm resistor between the current sensing zone and the stop zone.
If you use a train control software like Rocrail, you don't need those stop sections and the resistors, thus simplifying the wiring.

Only restrictions are:
- there is a small voltage drop (0.6 to 1.2 V) because of the current sensing circuit (you may notice a very small slow-down on some locos)
- the maximum current is limited by the diode current capacity (better avoid derailing in current-sensing areas)

Cheers
Jean


Hi Jean,

Thank you for your response. I'm planning to use Train Controller software. Would it still not be necessary to use stop sections and resistors when using TC software?

Thx,
Vedat


No, you don’t use stop sections and resistors when using TC software. The very best software in my opinion BigGrin

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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