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Offline Snowfun  
#1 Posted : 28 October 2021 09:29:12(UTC)
Snowfun

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/10/2021(UTC)
Posts: 15
Location: The Highlands
Hi Everyone,

I’m new to Z! I have live steam in the garden but I thought it would be fun to have a small layout inside the house too. I’m thinking of a baseboard 2400x600mm but could go to 3200x800mm (if the track layout requires it). Ideally I’d like 4 independent tracks (I have two Gaugemaster 2 track Z controllers) which will enable 4 trains to be running at any one time. Initially I thought that I’d avoid all turnout and crossing track on the basis that this minimises derailing. But am I correct here? How “reliable” are Marklin points and crossings? Obviously realism isn’t the first priority - a fun, “busy” & interesting set of routes is. If turnouts & crossings are not prone to derailing then my options increase.
Thoughts from those who know appreciated!

So far I’ve acquired a Red Cross “krokodil” and two E94s. Still coming to terms with just how tiny things are!
Comments appreciated.
T
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Offline Carim  
#2 Posted : 28 October 2021 13:07:07(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
Hi T,

Welcome to the forum. I think that Marklin points are no worse or better than any other brand in terms of causing derailments; what is key, is how carefully you lay the track in the first place. I have no experience of the crossings but I have one double slip and I can't recall having a derailment on that.

One resource that you might like to consult is: http://www.zscale.org/articles/turnout.html

Carim
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Offline Toosmall  
#3 Posted : 28 October 2021 13:21:03(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Sydney
Don't use curved or cross points and you will be right. After my first layout, never again. My current layout is effectively two parallel loops with a few straight turnouts.

Are you doing gradients? If you are, aim for 300mm minimum radius if the track is crossing over itself. Run uphill on the outside, 2% maximum.

Personally I think the 220 and 195mm radius is a bit tight even as a level layout. A bit more radius looks nicer. Also it's nice to go from straight and ease into a radius. If you want to use pre curved tack, you could go from straight, to 490mm radius (8591) then 220/195mm radius, a bit of cutting, but it looks better.

The track is really fiddly due to its size. So once you have a plan, draw it to full Z scale on paper. This is handy for RLs (relative level) when doing gradients. Also handy to work out scenery spacing.

Create a DA ("development application"), it will solve a multitude of problems which would otherwise occur later. I did this for my very complex layout and didn't have one problem. Infinitely cheaper and easier to fix mistakes on paper.

If keen, a bit of camber on a sweeping curve.
IMG_8728.jpg
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Offline Mman  
#4 Posted : 29 October 2021 00:06:12(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
I never cease to be amazed at how very, very few derailments I suffer with both Märklin and Rokuhan Z track. This compares with HO experience where ‘off the roads’ are not unusual. Even propelling at speed through reverse curves or crossovers is remarkably trouble free.
Märklin’s Z mini-club couplings whilst not beautiful do generally work well, I don’t get buffer locking or accidental decoupling like I do with HO, I’ve not used the uncoupling rails so can’t comment on their efficacy.
Regarding curved points, the only trouble I have experienced with one is from a rogue loco that I bought new and returned because it was derailing at several other places on the layout as well. When this two truck loco was placed on glass it could be rocked from side to side - if it hadn’t been brand new I would have looked into it further but it is so far almost * the only troublesome item I’ve had.
Even more amazing to me is how slowly all my locos can negotiate points without stalling or losing pickup - for a lightweight 2 rail system it’s remarkable. I’ve not gone in for super elevation on curves, looks nice but not strictly necessary at this scale.
* The items that do cause problems are 1) 88871 Flying Hamburger 2 car unit - a dreadful design where they put the powered truck at one end instead of in the middle - it can barely move itself if the track is anything other than straight and level.
and 2) the 1985 ICE (8871) consisting of two powered cars and 2 intermediate trailers. As designed, current pickup is always from the leading car with the supply to the rear car taken through the intermediates via special current conducting couplings - all well and good until ‘the weakest link’ in the chain of couplings starves the rear car of current and the whole thing stops or drags the consist off the road if on a curve. Later ICEs, especially the ICE3 88715, which has a much improved coupling system, behave better but some modify these multiple units so both power cars pick up current at all times.
So, T, I wish you success with your Z gauge venture, they really are fun to operate.
ChrisG
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Offline Toosmall  
#5 Posted : 29 October 2021 01:59:56(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Sydney
I have three original ICE sets with 6 cars each and have soldered a bit of wire across the diode on each loco so they both pick up their own power. On level track a 14 car set works perfectly ok. I also pulled out all the lighting to reduce weight. Adde lead to some locos and tyres to some of them. Soldering across the diode is the bestthing to do first.
Offline Mman  
#6 Posted : 29 October 2021 10:25:10(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
66C90717-9898-410E-ABC7-6FA94F33B83C.jpegF0B93AD9-5607-41A7-B529-0181877E925A.jpeg7B489FED-BF7A-4C2A-88C8-2128D46378D4.jpegThe later ICE3 (88715) uses a different philosophy for drive, that is only the Bordbistro is powered, each end coach picks up current and transmits it to the Bordbistro through the couplings, again only the lead car provides the power, the powercar must be connected to the end cars to work.
I’ve had a look this morning to see if it easily possible to have current feed from both ends simultaneously on the ICE3, but do not think a modification is practical or wise, this unit uses tiny surface mounted components which even if sorted out from those providing the lighting would not be easy to bridge.
The old ICE is easy to modify in a restorable way and for my two examples should be - whereas I see no reason at the moment to interfere with a nicely working ICE3. Maybe as it ages I might look at this again.
Must admit I’m a bit disappointed that using the pantographs to pickup current is not an option with this unit.
ChrisG
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Offline Toosmall  
#7 Posted : 30 October 2021 09:36:38(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Sydney
I do architectural 3D, but quite frankly for designing track work it is easier to get butchers paper to cover the layout and draw up with pencil.

Once you have made your sketches. Get some large sheets of 110gsm tracing paper or a roll and transfer all the dimensions. This will become your master plan. This is money well spent and will save you in the long run.

If you have different heights, use different colours if you prefer to keep all heights on one plan.

For drawing radiuses, make a large set of compasses. Get a narrow length of cardboard about 30mm wide, or double up a few times if not thick enough and tape together. Make a hole in one end for the pivot and holes along the length for say 195, 220, 490 and custom radiuses. Stick a pencil through the corresponding holes.

If you have gradients, put the RLs (relative level) on the plan. It is easy to calculate and space out gradients. The base of the layout height is 0.
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Offline wildstix  
#8 Posted : 30 October 2021 15:50:43(UTC)
wildstix

Indonesia   
Joined: 12/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 146
Location: Jakarta Raya, Jakarta
Originally Posted by: Snowfun Go to Quoted Post
Hi Everyone,

I’m new to Z! I have live steam in the garden but I thought it would be fun to have a small layout inside the house too. I’m thinking of a baseboard 2400x600mm but could go to 3200x800mm (if the track layout requires it). Ideally I’d like 4 independent tracks (I have two Gaugemaster 2 track Z controllers) which will enable 4 trains to be running at any one time. Initially I thought that I’d avoid all turnout and crossing track on the basis that this minimises derailing. But am I correct here? How “reliable” are Marklin points and crossings? Obviously realism isn’t the first priority - a fun, “busy” & interesting set of routes is. If turnouts & crossings are not prone to derailing then my options increase.
Thoughts from those who know appreciated!

So far I’ve acquired a Red Cross “krokodil” and two E94s. Still coming to terms with just how tiny things are!
Comments appreciated.
T


It's good to have you in the Z world! Welcome to this wonderful tiny headache 😅 haha jk! But on a serious note, get ready for some headaches during locos maintenance, they are terribly tiny!
I can't share anything on crossing track, because I never have one! But on the turnout, Marklin Z scale turnout is trustworthy! However, you have to be very precise in connecting them with the rest of the tracks. Adding the track nails also helps the connections stable and reduces the derailing risk to almost 0% (of course, it depends on the layout plan).
Oka aka W. Kapriandi
Märklin Z scale (mini-club) purist but not a modeler!
Offline Zme  
#9 Posted : 30 October 2021 19:01:23(UTC)
Zme

United States   
Joined: 02/10/2013(UTC)
Posts: 760
Location: West Texas
Hello and welcome to the z world and the best support site for your new hobby. Small scale but big interest here, you will find helpful information and a multitude of experienced users willing to help out. It is likely you will find more helpful information here than any other site.

I will add a few more comments to those already expressed.

Yes, z locomotive maintenance is certainly an eye test. Parts are small and easy to lose. Older locomotives may present a challenge in finding parts, but there is a great secondary market for this. Here is the Marklin website for parts, unless you are looking for common parts, it is possible you might not find what you’re looking for. There seems to be more information on newer models. Just enter your locomotive model number like 8816 or 88885 a number found right on the carton.

https://www.maerklin.de/...-parts/spare-parts-lists

I find it helpful to print the parts diagram from the spare parts link.

The track is so small, it might be easy to bend or break something. A parallel loop is nice because you can have more than one locomotive running at one time. Watch your hills and be certain it is not to steep. I also have not noticed a problem with points or crosses. The track is well designed, just take your time.

If you are going to use Marklin track, here is a Mini Club track planning book which Marklin has on their site:

https://www.maerklin.de/...Buch_Spur_Z_komplett.pdf

You can check this and see if it helps you.

There has never been so much available in z. It is a great time to get started.

Best wishes and again welcome.

Take good care.

Dwight
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Offline Toosmall  
#10 Posted : 31 October 2021 08:36:28(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 609
Location: Sydney
Pulling apart locos, I use a large serving tray, stops things rolling off the edge onto the floor. Still doesn't help with things like the spring in the couplers. The only thing is to work in a very empty room and get on your knees with a torch level with the floor. The springs are almost invisible. I oil locos will Faller oil 25ml 170489.
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#11 Posted : 31 October 2021 12:48:59(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Mman Go to Quoted Post
I never cease to be amazed at how very, very few derailments I suffer with both Märklin and Rokuhan Z track.



I'll second that! Admittedly I have nothing less than 220mm radius on my layout, but I can send trains round at full tilt (which is hugely unrealistically fast) without derailments.

Caveats being, avoid anything with plastic wheels and be wary of older style couplings without the chamfer on the top edge. If you're buying second hand, check the wheels. You can buy replacement metal wheels, but they'll probably cost as much as the thing you're re-wheeling. You can modify the couplings yourself with a little care.


Have fun!


Chris

Offline Mman  
#12 Posted : 31 October 2021 15:04:46(UTC)
Mman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/05/2021(UTC)
Posts: 247
Location: England, Guildford
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post
Pulling apart locos, I use a large serving tray, stops things rolling off the edge onto the floor. Still doesn't help with things like the spring in the couplers. The only thing is to work in a very empty room and get on your knees with a torch level with the floor. The springs are almost invisible. I oil locos will Faller oil 25ml 170489.


Whenever I refit a coupling I superglue the spring to the coupling to avoid more cases where it has pinged off into oblivion.
ChrisG
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Jay
Offline husafreak  
#13 Posted : 31 October 2021 17:23:19(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
My feeling is that the Marklin and Rokuhan track points both work. The reason to choose one over the other is down to scale accuracy VS ease of use. The Marklin is more finicky but has the prototypical look on a weathered and landscaped layout, the Rokuhan is less finicky but has the molded in grey plastic roadbed which will not be suitable for the most incredible scale realism. But as most here have mentioned Z scale (I have little experience otherwise) can have compatibility issues where a c certain loco or car will not work in combination with another or at a certain point on the track. My advice is to choose locos and cars that are known to have excellent running properties. We can help here with that. At least initially. Your Krokodil and E94's are great runners! I loved the post about plastic wheels. When I was new to the hobby someone at a show gave me a box of Marklin cars, I was thrilled! Then they were derailing. Then I found out about metal wheels...
Off topic but I posted about my new 88712 set to silence, but here we are going into details? LOL Is the 88712 improved by this jumping the diodes business? Does that disable the car lighting? It is a 5 pole ICE3. I recently picked up an expansion car for it, an 87711, on which the metal contacts on the coupler had delaminated. I used a hint of UHU to reattach. Maybe this post will produce answers to that thread?
To the OP, welcome. Other great forums are the Z Scale section on Trainboard and the AZL forum for North American trains. But as you will see great information and discussion knows no boundaries.
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#14 Posted : 31 October 2021 18:41:44(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 550
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
My feeling is that the Marklin and Rokuhan track points both work.


For me, a huge advantage of Marklin points is that you can run trains into them against the points. This is particularly useful on passing loops where you can set the points in opposite directions and have trains from each direction enter on different tracks and then leave the without having to change the points.

Cheers


Chris

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Offline zoooctan  
#15 Posted : 10 November 2021 10:07:07(UTC)
zoooctan

Singapore   
Joined: 07/09/2019(UTC)
Posts: 65
Location: Singapore, Singapore
Welcome to the wonderful world of z scale. Greetings from Singapore. You certainly make me jealous when you have live steam in the garden and am considering z scale! I must admit, I got into z many years ago simply because of how little space we have here in apartments in Singapore.

I have run z for almost 20 years and have used both Marklin and Rokuhan. I have used both new track and bought second hand ones. I think from my running, I find Marklin turnouts to be "more reliable and lasting" than Rokuhan but that's been my experience. All of the other advice is very good. Curved turnouts are tricky. Keeping your track and turnouts especially clean is also very important.

Perhaps one piece to add...that I have seen shared is that while Marklin turnouts (like all turnouts) can be quite demanding on our locomotives...often they may stall without enough power or if dirty...however I have had different experience with different locomotives. So sometimes, the turnouts aren't solely to blame. So just keep that in mind and don't be discouraged if a piece of track doesn't appear to work well...sometimes it's the loco.

I also switched to a Gaugemaster (4 individual controls) recently and absolutely love it! If I can give you some advice..if you can get your hands on a Marklin GT2 4x4 locomotive and get that to run on the Gaugemaster...you will be stunned!
I actually have a youtube video shooting this -


This is the best forum with very helpful people and they have tons of knowledge!
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Offline husafreak  
#16 Posted : 10 November 2021 17:26:50(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
Nice review! I so wanted to get a Guagemaster quad controller but the company will not make them for our lower mains voltage here in the US. The transformer is so important in the controllers operation that they are unwilling to use another and they even warn against possible negative consequences of using a step up transformer before it. Such a shame...
As you noted the Marklin transformer (I use the older versions with internal transformer, not a wall wart) has rather large speed steps which detracts greatly from the crawling or slow start up that the Guagemaster looks to be good at. But in its defense the Marklin gets the loco's around the track! My experience with the Rokuhan and Snail Speed controllers is that while they have the fine speed adjustment of the Guagemaster they can be finicky in operation and leave trains stranded on the track. Also many of the US locos like the AZL's can be pretty slow on only 9v. Too bad the Guagemaster cannot do 10.
Great review!
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