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analog signal on digital M track section of siding spur - between C track for aesthetic display only with light and semiphore operation
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Offline marklinist5999  
#1 Posted : 12 July 2021 14:23:02(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Michigan, Troy
I know you are not to mix power systems, so I just want to use it for the light and semiphore functions not connected to the track. The signal base is grounded to the M track section between C track. Can I power the signal light and semiphore only with a separate 16 volt a/c trafo used only for lighting with an old 7072 blue control box? Could current get to the grounded M track somehow and cause a short in the CS3?
Thank you in advance.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 12 July 2021 16:53:14(UTC)
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JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,114
Location: Paris, France
Hi
You may power your digital trains on M Track while using independent semaphores.
2 possibilities:

EITHER the semaphore is electrically not connected to the M Track (no base plate used). Then you simply connect the signal's yellow plug to a +16 VAC power source ("Trafo") and the 0 V to the signal's front female plug.

OR the semaphore is connected to the M Track by its base plate. Then you simply connect the semaphore's yellow plug to a +16 VAC power source ("Trafo") and the 0 V to the track's base which is also the 0 of the digital source.

All is fine provided in all cases, the transfo used to power analog semaphores or switches is TOTALLY ISOLATED from the digital power source except the 0 V of the Trafo connected to the 0 of the digital power (MS2, CS2, CS3,..)
Cheers
Jean
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Offline marklinist5999  
#3 Posted : 12 July 2021 17:02:23(UTC)
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marklinist5999

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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Michigan, Troy
Merci once again JohnjeanB!
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Offline marklinist5999  
#4 Posted : 12 July 2021 18:41:43(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Michigan, Troy
One more question John; can I also isolate the m track section, and operate the signal with the analog control box?
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 12 July 2021 18:50:49(UTC)
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JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,114
Location: Paris, France
Yes you can
Jean
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Offline marklinist5999  
#6 Posted : 12 July 2021 19:15:12(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Michigan, Troy
Thank's again! I want to use the same control box for a Viessmann crossing flasher/ St. Andrews cross warning signals.
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Offline H0  
#7 Posted : 12 July 2021 20:02:03(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,263
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
I know you are not to mix power systems, so I just want to use it for the light and semiphore functions not connected to the track.
It is important to only connect one power source to the centre-rail at any time.
With modern controllers, do not connect anything to the power supply of that controller, not even common ground.

But common ground between the output stage of a digital controller and analogue power supplies is not a problem - and it is required to get e.g. level crossings to operate.

No need to isolate the signal when you operate it with a transformer and a control box. Common ground with the digital track is not a problem and controlling track power with the signal means no harm.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline marklinist5999  
#8 Posted : 13 July 2021 08:57:25(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Michigan, Troy
Ok Tom, thanks. If an M track signal is on it's track base, is it grounded to the common ground for the CS3? I have it that way, and wired it to the M83. It's working, and the mast light is on constant. I even connected the block section wires. One m track turnout is on the same M83, and also has a constant lantern. I haven't ran a train yet to test the power drain. There is a slight constant buzz from that M83. I have two side by side for 7 turnouts and 1 signal. 6 turnouts are C track w/no lanterns. Think it's ok?
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Offline marklinist5999  
#9 Posted : 13 July 2021 21:48:41(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Michigan, Troy
I read the Marklin guide, and it says an M84 decoder is needed for analog signals. I did no re configuring of my M83's, yet the analog signal works.
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Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 13 July 2021 22:53:56(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,263
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
I read the Marklin guide, and it says an M84 decoder is needed for analog signals.
M84 is needed for modern Hobby signals without solenoids, M83 is needed for all sorts of solenoids including analogue signals.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 14 July 2021 00:10:20(UTC)
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JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,114
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
I read the Marklin guide, and it says an M84 decoder is needed for analog signals. I did no re configuring of my M83's, yet the analog signal works.

The key differences between M83 and M84 are:
- the M84 (60842) is a decoder and relay association providing independence between the digital part of the decoder and the contact of the relays (2 contacts per output one being a dry contact for track and the second one being a "polarized" contact (SPDT) to drive LEDs in the start-up light signals
- the M83 (60832) is a decoder combined with 8 power outputs. Depending on the configuration, each output can be paired to drive switch motors and signals, they also can be used alone (the M83 uses 2 addresses) where each of the outputs can be driven ON and OFF independently. The outputs are NOT separated from the digital signal (common ground and return provided by the decoder). Each of the outputs can be programmed to deliver a steady-state, various form of blinking and random illumination.
Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
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