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Offline PMPeter  
#51 Posted : 26 August 2021 20:48:15(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,123
Location: Port Moody, BC
In Post #22 John has given an excellent summary, especially with respect to changing locos and more prototypical narrow pantograph wipers. This situation is exactly the problem I am now facing. I started installing catenary on my layout a few years ago using a Maerklin 3034 loco as the test loco. It has relatively wide wipers (~27mm) and everything worked fine. However in the meantime I have purchased several modern engines such as the Roco Railjet which has very narrow wipers (~16mm). So as suspected I cannot run this loco with pantographs up since it gets hung up in just about every curve.

So my dilemma is, do I rip out all of the catenary and start over, especially in the curves? Is it even possible to accommodate these narrow wipers? Do I restrict the pantographs to a lower height as others have suggested somewhere to not actually contact the wires? Or, do I go with the controversial approach of only installing the masts, but I suspect that even that would require some form of pantograph height limitation?

Thoughts?

Peter
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#52 Posted : 26 August 2021 21:42:34(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,862
I am very happy with my decision to install the masts only.

IMG_20210401_160006.jpg
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline PMPeter  
#53 Posted : 26 August 2021 22:06:54(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,123
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I am very happy with my decision to install the masts only.


Did you have to limit the pantograph height in order not to hit the mast arms?

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Offline DaleSchultz  
#54 Posted : 27 August 2021 03:22:55(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,862
at present I simply run with pantographs down. I plan on eventually tying a thread on them to limit their height.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline river6109  
#55 Posted : 27 August 2021 03:24:32(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Peter, if you want to go along and adjust the outrigger arms it should solve your problems but its a lot of work and you may find the masts or wires aren't the right lenght anymore., try it and see if it works,
I'm just in the prozess in exchanging my home made wires to the standard Sommerfeldt wires.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Ranjit  
#56 Posted : 27 August 2021 06:32:12(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,917
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
This is one thing that I have to disagree with Dale ! I am sure Dale is saying what he is saying with a lot of experience, but, having just the masts on your layout and no catenary and running electric locomotives with the pantographs down makes absolute baloney ! This is MHO.

I am sure after all these years of producing catenary systems, Sommerfeldt / Viessmann and others must be doing something "right". I believe if you invest in high quality materials and install them on your layout as per the instructions stipulated by the manufacturer, and run your electric locomotives, it must be a amazing or wonderful thing to see.

John is certainly on the "right track" !

Cheers,
Ranjit
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

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Offline river6109  
#57 Posted : 27 August 2021 11:25:05(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Ranjit Go to Quoted Post
This is one thing that I have to disagree with Dale ! I am sure Dale is saying what he is saying with a lot of experience, but, having just the masts on your layout and no catenary and running electric locomotives with the pantographs down makes absolute baloney ! This is MHO.

I am sure after all these years of producing catenary systems, Sommerfeldt / Viessmann and others must be doing something "right". I believe if you invest in high quality materials and install them on your layout as per the instructions stipulated by the manufacturer, and run your electric locomotives, it must be a amazing or wonderful thing to see.

John is certainly on the "right track" !

Cheers,
Ranjit


Ranjit, it was my choice to have an overhead system and at the time it was not recommended to run electric digital locos from the catenary, someone created an absolute myth and my experience so far, I haven't had any problems with them running on my layout now for over 45 years.
As Dale decided it wasn't his choice which is regrettable as a proper installed overhead system doesn't cause any problems, getting to locos or carriageson or off the track, you get used to it, like putting your spoon into your mouth and not your nose;
some modelers avoid the experience to go all the way and there are others who use the old Märklin overhead system with great success.
some modelers also delay starting with the landscaping but unless you start you don't know what it is going to be like;
by reading and looking at instructions, tips and suggestions, everything is on youtube these days.
I've made mistakes in the past, whereas the wires almost all of them corroded because they were kept in an acidic environment, I've used solder fluid which was highly corrosive, I've made my own wires which I now replace with the standard wires from Sommerfeldt., so you can see I've made enough blunders, waste of money, waste of time but I don't regret it because it taught me to use the proper tools, equipment and I gained knowledge.

Personally I can't see just putting up masts would have satisfied achieving a goal at all but everyone has their own ideas, methods and explanation, as one gets older you get used to things and I admit getting there one has to have patience and not everyone can deal with it

regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#58 Posted : 27 August 2021 16:09:08(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,862
unlike some others, I have experience with both approaches. Been there done that.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline PMPeter  
#59 Posted : 27 August 2021 16:19:08(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,123
Location: Port Moody, BC
Guys, I did not want to restart the debate about whether a masts only or masts and wire approach is the "correct" way to go. That is up to each individual as to what works best for them and we need to respect that.

What my main concern right now is, what do I do with my installation when it comes to the newer very narrow pantograph wipers. As John pointed out I can try to adjust my arms, but as he predicted I soon run out of catenary wire length, etc.

So right now I am leaning towards ripping it all out and using Dale's approach of masts only. It is not what I originally intended, but at my age it may be the compromise that I need to live with.
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Offline river6109  
#60 Posted : 27 August 2021 16:23:39(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Peter, its sad to hear you are taken the route of ripping it all off, I'm 77 and still pulling it down and putting it up but its every person own choice, I'm happy what I'm doing and that's what counts.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline PMPeter  
#61 Posted : 27 August 2021 16:27:46(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,123
Location: Port Moody, BC
John, I haven't made the final decision, I'm just leaning that way. I am going to try and fix one route and see how much is involved before I decide whether to give up or redo the whole thing.

Peter
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Offline Minok  
#62 Posted : 28 August 2021 01:02:40(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Overhead catenary system deployment choices are like track system choices; they are an individuals own preference for what they themselves value most in the model implementation.
C-Track vs K-Track, that debate we know, and even there you will have folks arguing they are 100% convinced the other side is wrong and insane. Its a matter of what you yourself prefer to see, and what aspects you won't find problematic. Its all models, and all models are wrong from the reality, just varying in how they are wrong from reality. What 1 person finds looks horrible another would not care at all about. What one person finds worth the work, another person doesn't want to invest the time in to do all over the layout for what they optically get.

So it is with overhead catenary. If you look at photographs of electric trains , it is indeed very difficult to actually see the catenary cables, especially on video footage, unless the camera is very close to the track. Here with the camera close, one can see it, but imagine how thin that would be at H0 scale, to be proportionally scaled to the mast element thicknesses.

UserPostedImage

Once you are looking down from a helicopter view, which most of us see layouts from, it gets a lot harder to see those wires against the dark ground backdrop. So I can understand the view of not bothering with the stuff between the masts.. as from several feet away, it is not so obvious to may. Others find the overhead wires critical to realism, even if they are a bit thicker than 1:87 scale, the same way we put static grass on layouts that is quite often way too tall for what real world grass would be at scale. Each person has their own preferences.

Beauty is that even if you don't put up the wires, or if you do put up wires but don't want to run the pantographs 'in contact' with the wires ( more reliability, no wear on the pantographs) , there are solutions. Some locos have height adjustable automatic pantographs these days (ESU for example) where a CV can set the 'up position' and you are good to go. Others may be automatic but have a fixed UP level, so that the pantograph is intended to be in contact with the wires.

So one can adjust/install monofilament (fishing line) that is thin and holds the pantograph at a fixed height.
or one can use plastic parts fitted to other areas on the pantograph mechanism that restrict how high the pantograph will go... thus allowing running with pantographs up even without wires.

Pantofixer is one solution to installing a thing that will limit how far up the pantograph goes (be it servo driven or if you just have pure spring loaded pantographos):
https://www.stillertec.c...ahl-und-Einbauanleitung/

So in the end, you can have any configuration you personally prefer - mast/no-wires, masts-wires no contact, mast-wires contact, or no masts or wires and still have pantos up. One thing is clear though, no one is wrong about what they prefer for themselves.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline river6109  
#63 Posted : 28 August 2021 17:11:48(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
John, I haven't made the final decision, I'm just leaning that way. I am going to try and fix one route and see how much is involved before I decide whether to give up or redo the whole thing.

Peter


Peter, what overhead system are you using ?

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline river6109  
#64 Posted : 28 August 2021 17:13:23(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I believe its 0.3mm

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline PMPeter  
#65 Posted : 28 August 2021 17:21:44(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,123
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Peter, what overhead system are you using ?

John



In tunnel and covered areas I used the old style Marklin catenary so that I could curve the catenary. In visible areas I used Viessmann with Maerklin cantilever arms (since they accept soldering) to avoid melting of the plastic insulators on the Viessmann arms, or the Maerklin equivalent masts.

What made you switch to Sommerfeldt?

Peter
Offline joyofmarklin  
#66 Posted : 07 September 2021 02:35:05(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 25/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 114
Location: phoenix
Currently The 3rd Rail is doing very informative video on installing

Also many useful videos for beginners and all.
Great stuff
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Offline river6109  
#67 Posted : 07 September 2021 03:51:43(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,731
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
For a start it looked more prototypical, secondly one could tension the wires.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Ranjit  
#68 Posted : 07 September 2021 07:42:32(UTC)
Ranjit


Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,917
Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
Originally Posted by: joyofmarklin Go to Quoted Post




A brilliant introduction to the world of Märklin catenary system ! It looks amazingly simple to install and use.

Cheers,
Ranjit

Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital
_____________________________________________________________________________

#Get Vaccinated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo
"If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney
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