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Offline bask185  
#1 Posted : 04 June 2021 10:56:21(UTC)
bask185

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Noord-Holland, Alkmaar
At our model railway club we have 2 central station 3+, which are at least 15 meters apart. I have connected both CS3 devices to an iTrain computer using ethernet cables and a WLAN router. Works like a charm. Both central stations are added in iTrain being separate interfaces. So in iTrain I have 2 merged loco lists, half of the locos belong to interface 1 and the other half to interface 2.

I have also added a roco Z21 WLAN maus to iTrain with which I can control trains by entering an address. However if both central stations have the same addresses, which train I am going to control? Address 24 on interface 1 or Address 24 on interface 2?

Both separate circruits, will eventually be connected. Electrically this can be done galvanically isolated by making a transition part where I use a relay to switch from one Cs3 to the other. Or I can synchronize both railsignals by feeding both layouts by the same booster circuit. This is a problem for later on however... I don't want to discuss this here and now.

Right now I want to configure one of the central stations as a slave and the other as a master. Both are still connected to the same router. The goal is to synchronize the locolists and to have a better operation in iTrain. The slave unit also has an S88 bus which also has to makes it's way to iTrain.

What I would like to know is if I need a the can bus connection. The manual does not give a clear explanation (or I looked at the wrong manual). I am aware that the rail signals are also present in this cable, so that the slave central station's power unit will act as a booster device. I am guessing that the can bus cable in this case is used in a similar fashion as the boosters. I believe (still guessing here) that the canbus is primarily used to relay information between trackpower and shortcircuit and such.

What I absolutely do not know is where the can bus between master-slave is used for besides the described booster part. I am also guessing that things like the loco list and control panel layouts are synchronized via ethernet instead of their can bus. But instructions for loco's and accessories, is that done via the canbus? or is this also done via the router (<- this is my guess).

So now my questions summarized
1). Can master slave operation work without the canbus cable? (discarding the lack of rail signal synchronization).
2). If that cable is not present, will the slave unit generate it's own tracksignals or will it output nothing and must I feed the entire layout by the other layout?
#). Without the can bus cable, can the slave Cs3 use it's own internal S88 connection to relay S88 information to the master? Or must I pull an STP cable and connect to the S88 chain on the other side?

Kind regards,

Bas
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 04 June 2021 23:28:11(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,912
Location: New Zealand
As far as I know everything is done over the CAN bus cable - the ethernet cable is not used in a master / slave setup with CS3 / CS3+'s.

So the answer to your questions are

#1 No
#2 The slave unit will not receive any information from the master
#3 No

BTW, Welcome to the forum.
Offline clapcott  
#3 Posted : 07 June 2021 04:13:34(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,329
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
So now my questions summarized

Given that you already state that you have ...
- 2 CS3s
- connected on the same ethernet network
- NO CAN bus connection

... and are asking 3 questions about this exact environment, I think we are mostly thinking to ourselves "why can you not answer your own questions"







Peter
Offline bask185  
#4 Posted : 07 June 2021 09:37:32(UTC)
bask185

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Noord-Holland, Alkmaar
The first reason why I asked is because of this youtube vid. I had some difficulties understanding what he said as my German is not that great. But it was clear that he also used an ethernet cable and a router device.

In order to synchronize things like loco lists and such, you would also have to send all the .bmp files of your locos. Ethernet has built-in file transfer protocol. So it seems logical to me that the ethernet link is used for atleast this purpose. And if you have that working over ethernet, why should you not have everything working over ethernet? The second reason of me asking, is that I know marklin and they tend to make worst possible decisions when it comes to their control equipment. So before I asked I already anticipated a negative anwser.

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
As far as I know everything is done over the CAN bus cable - the ethernet cable is not used in a master / slave setup with CS3 / CS3+'s.

Not to offend you or anything, but how sure are you about this?

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

So the answer to your questions are

#1 No
#2 The slave unit will not receive any information from the master
#3 No


As I explained I cannot say that I am disappointed. I already expected that Marklin didn't think of scenarios where cooperating central stations would be >2m apart. It would be only logical to have a master/slave system working over ethernet because everybody could simply bridge large distances using ethernet cables. It would also be logical to have their canbus implemented using RJ45 of RJ12 cables instead of their current combination of 4, 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10 pole mini DIN connectors..

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

BTW, Welcome to the forum.


Thanks, but I am only here because Marklin's documentation is lacking and I had to ask this specific question. I will be most likely suspending my account soon. It was part of my research. I joined my current model railway club after the people their already wasted all their money on CS3s. If I would be present at that time I would have convinced the entire club to purchase one whole Roco Z21 and control both layouts with it in combination with an Xnet and Lnet bus. Would also have saved us an iTrain pro-license. I mean closed can-bus protocol, no Xnet, no Lnet, no alternative to S88, slow processors, poor touchscreens and an extremely poor user interface.

Anways.. back on course... I also discussed the coupling of the layouts on the iTrain forum. And for us it is best not to have the central stations in master-slave configuration based on the facts that we don't have to, we dont gain anything by doing it and when iTrain is turned off both layouts can drive by hand without dependencies. Currently (and I have this working already) they are working as separate interfaces which are both controlled by one iTrain server while the other computer works as master-client.

To connect the two layouts electrically I am going to make a fail-safe system with a bi-stable relay. There will be one crossing sections and with a relay, this section can be connected to either 1 of the 2 Cs3 circuits without ever short-circuiting the two.

Anyways thank you for your answer, it is appreciated.

EDIT:
I have watched that video again. He already sets up the master slave connection before he uses the can bus cable. I also hear him explaining (this time) that the can cable is used to synchronize certain functions and to let the slave act as a synchronized booster for the master. This kinda what I thought but it is not clear which functions are synchronized. The manual on the other hand does say this:
Quote:
Since the Central Station 3 (60226) does not have a Märklin CAN Bus input, it cannot be used in master/slave operation as a slave.

So this indicates that the cable is in fact needed. So where is the ethernet connection for then? In other words, I think that nobody here knows the real answers because marklin does not explain how their stuff works.

Kind regards,

Bas

P.S.

This however is less appreciated as it lacks any constructive content and I even find it slightly condescending.
Quote:
I think we are mostly thinking to ourselves "why can you not answer your own questions"

Clearly, you have either not read what I typed or you did not understand what I typed. And I also doubt if you actually know anything about ethernet or canbus and let alone know anything about how marklin does it's things. I am not going to spend my time testing something which may not not even work but which will most likely not work as. I thought it would be better to ask people who have already invented this wheel before me.
Offline mvd71  
#5 Posted : 07 June 2021 10:12:16(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,403
Location: Auckland,
If you want help, coming into this forum and calling into question the knowledge of one of the more knowledgable people on the Märklin system is not really smart.
Also telling everyone that you will suspend your account once you get what you want is not how to get free help from a community that is built on everyone contributing in a positive manner.

Your approach is giving my ancestors a bad name!
Offline bask185  
#6 Posted : 07 June 2021 10:32:30(UTC)
bask185

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Noord-Holland, Alkmaar
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post
coming into this forum and calling into question the knowledge of one of the more knowledgable people on the Märklin system is not really smart

First being a newcommer I cannot possibly who know who are the experts here. And I also cannot tell if these experts, just work with marklin equipment alot or that are employed for marklin and actually worked on these systems.

Secondly I don't insult the guy and I dont question his knowledge. I merely ask how sure he precisely is. I am just being critical here.
From what he said, it was not 100% obvious to me that Bigdaddynz does not know all the ins and outs of the system.
And I could not blame him for it. Marklin has been very keen in keeping their stuff secret.
Thirdly
Quote:
Also telling everyone that you will suspend your account once you get what you want is not how to get free help from a community that is built on everyone contributing in a positive manner.

This is perhaps true. I did however not mean it in that way. It is just that I know more than enough of Marklin to get the stuff working at our club. I said this because it is extremely unlikely that I will actually have further marklin related questions in the future.

I am simply tasked with connecting 2 separate CS3/iTrain controlled layouts and it seems that the entire internet does not seem to know precisely how the master-slave is handled. It is not known of all related parts which are handled via ethernet and which are handled via canbus. I atleast could not find the answers online.

Kind regards,

Bas
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#7 Posted : 07 June 2021 12:15:01(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,912
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
From what he said, it was not 100% obvious to me that Bigdaddynz does not know all the ins and outs of the system.


I don't have a single CS3 let alone multiple CS3's. I'm hoping to purchase one some time this year. When I do, I want to set my CS2 as a slave to my CS3. For that reason I already have a 60123 cable, because I know how to read a CS3 manual and read the Marklin Digital Systems Architecture diagram.

In those documents it is clear that you need to connect the master / slave CS3's by way of the 60123 can bus cable. This implies that all communication between the master and slave is done across that cable. Who really cares if the ethernet cable is used? The best thing for you to do is to go buy and CS3 and a CS3+, connect them together via the can bus cable and the ethernet cable. Setup a PC with Wireshark on it (requires a switch port configured for promiscuous mode) and see if Wireshark picks up any tcpip communication between the devices. Unplug the ethernet cable and see if everything still works or not.

There are Oscilloscopes available that are capable of decoding CAN bus signals. Grab one of those and use it to read the CAN bus signals.

Then come back here and tell us all your findings before you suspend your account (maybe I could suspend it now and save everyone the trouble).


Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
Clearly, you have either not read what I typed or you did not understand what I typed. And I also doubt if you actually know anything about ethernet or canbus and let alone know anything about how marklin does it's things.


Are you kidding me??

Peter (Clapcott) does have a CS3+ and has used it extensively and made many posts within this forum as to its operation, its limitations, any bugs found, etc. Peter being an ex IBMer has been working with computers for many many years and know his way around technology including hardware, software programming and electronics. Peter probably knows more about ethernet and CAN buses than anyone else I know. Mr. C (as I keep calling him) is a past President and the current Vice President of our Marklin Club here in NZ. If you want to question his knowledge go right ahead but I can assure you you won't reach the limit of his knowledge.

Capture.JPG

From page 29 of the CS3 v2.0 manual

Capture.JPG

Page 43 from the same manual.
Offline bask185  
#8 Posted : 07 June 2021 14:01:04(UTC)
bask185

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Noord-Holland, Alkmaar
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post


I don't have a single CS3 let alone multiple CS3's. I'm hoping to purchase one some time this year. When I do, I want to set my CS2 as a slave to my CS3. For that reason I already have a 60123 cable, because I know how to read a CS3 manual and read the Marklin Digital Systems Architecture diagram.

I know that as well. But I want to know how it works. It could have been that marklin implemented this cable as a sort fail-safe to prevent users from accidently hooking up the output signals of 2 central station 3+ without a synchronization and blowing up €1600 worth of electronics.

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

In those documents it is clear that you need to connect the master / slave CS3's by way of the 60123 can bus cable. This implies that all communication between the master and slave is done across that cable. Who really cares if the ethernet cable is used?

I would like to know why the marklin company released a video on youtube in which they connect 2 central stations to a router for the master-slave system. I believe you that that this can also work without ethernet. But if loco or point instructions would also be sent via the ethernet connection, one could do without the cable. But this is where this entire thread is about. So that is why I care about the ethernet cable.

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

Are you kidding me??

Please calm down. I mean well here. I already said that I do not know anybody here. I cannot possibly know who is an expert here and what people consider to be expert here. The one and only thing that I knew of mr Clapcott at the time here is that he posted an ignorant and unconstructive post as reply to my OP. And with that he 'suggested' rather clearly to me that he either did not read or did not understand that what I typed. He started to be negative towards me and not the other way around.
Quote:
I think we are mostly thinking to ourselves "why can you not answer your own questions"


I believe you that he is all brilliant and all, but his post implied the exact opposite. And I simply do not like being insulted being directly or indirectly. I am not trying to cause an argument, I am not 'trying to win' an argument. I just want to know what marklin does under the hood.

I might actually configure one of our Cs3 as slave and try out what does work. They are already connected to the same router. But I already know that we don't need it, it gains me little. But perhaps I may discover something usefulls for others which may or may not be of interest.


I have a side question btw. If you already own a Cs2, why do you still want the Cs3? I have driven trains with both, and IMO the Cs3 was even worse for controlling. I must add that our loco list was a mess. So I had really a hard time with finding a loco if I wanted to take control. I suppose if you organize that, it can be 'acceptable'.

The cs2 irritated me with the slow loading of the train page and you had to search through too little symbols. I just wanted to select trains and not look them up. + I do not really like that you have to look at the screen all the time in order to see what you are doing. With the cs2 you also have to turn the knob 3 full revolutions to reach 100% speed. A colleage from the club informed me that a central station 2 cannot use the same control panels as a Cs3 as the graphics are implemented differently. The cs3 irritated me mostly with the fact that the screen always lags behind my fingermovements

I find the things way to expensive for what they can do. To buy a second Cs to control turnouts is an expensive solution. You can also use s88 contacts and make yourself a physical control panel for points. To buy a 2nd CS for 2 extra red knobs also seem needlessly expensive. If you drive with a computer interface you already don't use 80% of it's capabilities. You can also get a tams redbox for ~€200 and use the remaing €600,- for second hand multimaus devices and you get to use Xpressnet switch panels and such. It also has S88 interface.

I discarded my Cs2 in favour of a white z21 start with a roco lokmaus 2. costed me under €120. I still have the CS and sometimes I use it to program decoders with.

I am not judging you or anything, I am honestly curious to why others like Central stations so bad. I often see that the average marklin user simply does not know any better than buying marklin control items. Like I was many years ago. Now I have seen the light of XpressNet and all the wonderful and cheap things that come with it. And how easy it is to use arduino's with XpressNet (with Philip Ghatow's libraroes).. I never want to go back.

But if central stations increase your qualitiy of live you should definately buy them!

Kind regards,

Bas




Offline franciscohg  
#9 Posted : 07 June 2021 18:50:00(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,124
Location: Patagonia
Hi, just a little piece of Information from maerklin Service.
I was using my 60216 and 60215 as master/slave trough the CAN bus, it works well, you can use your 60215 as booster and even got your s88 connect to it and Feedback to the 60216. But i got some times a message that the CAN bus has reached a crítica state and will not work anymore. After checking connection and cleaning the plugs i still received the message, so i wrote to marklin Service and the response was to have both units connected trough the CAN bus AND trough the router, with no further explanations.
Still got that message from time to time though.
So for now the 60215 is used for the workbench right now. Will return to that later.
Regards

PS, connection trough the router was already showed in the pictures abive
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
Offline mvd71  
#10 Posted : 07 June 2021 23:20:17(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,403
Location: Auckland,
Ok, so maybe one simple answer to your original post, is that the CAN bus does carry all the data across, eg if I make a change of a loco speed in one controller and then pull up the same loco on the second controller, the changes will be reflected there, same for accessories I believe ( been a little while since I did it as my layout is not accessible at present).

As I understand it Märklin intended the CAN bus to be the interface between the units for all data. I currently have a 15 metre CAN cable that I have used to connect a cs2 and cs3+

If you want the two CS3 units to be synchronised you need to use the CAN bus.

I think the reason for what you see of Märklin users only buying the Märklin controller is a desire to have a plug and play solution with components that are all designed to work together, and for most the CS2/3 meets this requirement (not for me personally)

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Mike
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#11 Posted : 08 June 2021 03:03:51(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,912
Location: New Zealand
Peter will often ask a provocative question in order to prompt a person to think about and come up with an answer themselves, and that's what I think he has done in this case. He is not trying to be negative towards you, but probably wants you to think about the issue rather than him just giving you a pile of information.

As I said before, get a PC with Wireshark on it and see what communications are happening over the ethernet connection between the two CS3's.

Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Are you kidding me??

Please calm down. I mean well here. I already said that I do not know anybody here. I cannot possibly know who is an expert here and what people consider to be expert here.


Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
And I also doubt if you actually know anything about ethernet or canbus and let alone know anything about how marklin does it's things.


That was in response to your suggestion that Peter probably knew nothing about ethernet or the CAN bus, which I'm pointing out is nonsense. Hence my incredulity! How to win friends and influence people - basically call someone you've never met an idiot and then expect them to answer your questions!


Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
I have a side question btw. If you already own a Cs2, why do you still want the Cs3?


My layout has difficult to access areas. Once you're there its an effort to get back to the main controller to alter settings. I'd rather have physical knobs in the remote areas to twiddle rather than use a flakey interface such as that on a mobile phone for throttle control.

So my idea was to have a CS3 as the main device (can't buy a CS2 new anymore) with my existing CS2 and two CS1's as remote controllers at four points on the layout. Note that the CS1 to CS2 remote control data goes over the ethernet connection, which I think is the better way.

Mother M has thrown a spanner into those particular works by removing support for the CS1 as a remote controller in the latest CS2 software update so I'm left with either keeping a down level software version and CS1 remote control support or upgrading the CS2 for the latest features but loosing the CS1 remote control support.

That's the main reason for a CS3. Given they've been around for 4 or 5 years now the CS3 is a bit more mature. I have Marklin boosters on my layout so my controllers are limited to being Marklin unless I replace everything.

I'm not adverse to other controllers - besides my CS2 I have 3 CS1's (one of which is ESU Reloaded), an early Ecos, an early Intellibox and a 6021. I also have the opportunity to purchase a used Intellibox 2 (we use these on our 1 Gauge modular layout). Roco Z21? Well, if I want to update the firmware on my Roco crane or use a PS4 controller to control the crane I will need a Z21....

Maybe iTrains is the way to bridge all of these devices......
Offline bask185  
#12 Posted : 21 June 2021 13:30:16(UTC)
bask185

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Noord-Holland, Alkmaar
I found something interesting in an online PDF of (suprisingly) marklin

Google translated to english:
Quote:
The Can-UDP gateway can be started on the CS2 via the Setup / IP settings. An IP address (also broadcast) to which the gateway sends can be specified there. The port addresses cannot be set via the interface and are permanently set to ports 15731 and 15730. Function: When started, the gateway listens on the Ethernet receiving port 15731. It discards all UDP packets with a length other than 13. Packets of length 13 are interpreted as Can-Bus packets: 4-byte Can-Bus-Id (BigEndian or Network Order), 1 byte in length and 8 byte of data, which may have to be filled with zero bytes. This packet is then put on the Can-Bus as a Can-Bus message. Non-mappable bits or bytes on the CAN bus are ignored and should be set to "0". Conversely, the gateway reads all Can-Bus messages, converts them in an analogous manner into UDP packets of length 13 and sends them to the specified one IP address and the sending port (15730).

@franciscohg Maybe that you can solve your issue now. You apparantly got the right advice of marklin, but perhaps they forgot to mention that you had to alter settings in the central station??

From what I read of it. Is that all CAN bus messages CAN also be transmitted via ethernet. I do want to try out the master slave system now. I am curious about the results. At this point I suspect that I can use it as controller and that S88 info will be relayed, but at this time I do not know whether the slave's booster will function. Though iTrain knows which train is on which circuit, the loco lists need to be synchronized and with current setup you would have to manually add the same loco to both central stations. And I fear how wrong this may go with mFx loco's.

This is why I don't just assume statements of somebody, not even of experienced people or people with a lot of posts. Nobody here, mr Clapcott included, seems to knew this. Marklin's customer service also has not responded at all. This is why I am critical, why I need to have some proof. Marklin's drawings with canbus cable were simply not enough evidence that certain things could work fine without the can cable. And this is where this thread is all about.

Last week I used a Viessman 5552 relay to make the electrical sluice between the 2 circuits. Absolute fail-safe operation. Now I have to electrically wire the bridge before I can actually send a train over it. So I definitely won't be using synchronized rail signals.

@igdaddynz, I don't know if this is of any interest of you. Like I mentioned, I got a roco WLAN maus working. I can control a train on 2 separate central stations. The maus has already proven to be a valuable asset. It is really useful to be able to control a train or turnout from every position. I am also going to bring my z21 to the railway club and see if I can get the same results using the XpressNet interface. This should work fine. There are also cheaper ways (~€40,-) of adding Xnet to Itrain.

What I want to say is:
Quote:
Maybe iTrains is the way to bridge all of these devices......

Yes it can do pricisely that among much more. You can optionally also automate certain things and or use the computer to control turnout streets for instance. It is a rather expensive program. The standard version costs a whopping €209. But for that amount + a €40 for an X-net interface you do get to add XpressNet to your marklin layout there are also Loconet interfaces available. + you would have about €550 left to buy 2nd hand multimauses provided you won't be purchasing an €800 Cs3+. On exchanges you often can find these mauses for ~€50 or even less. I myself am using a 2nd hand roco lokmaus 2 for €22,-. It is an old primitive thing, but it works well.

So if want just the 2 red knobs you can go spend €800,- and you will have your 2 red knobs on a fixed position.

Or you buy iTrain, X-net interface, get an old laptop or other PC (also works on raspberry Pi) and lets say 2 multimauses and you get to hold these 2 red knobs (which are than black knobs BigGrin ) in your hand and you will be able to plug them in everywhere on your layout using Xnet. And all this for halve the money.

Also I dont know if this is entirely true. But I thought that the control panels on central stations 2 and 3 are not entirely compatible because the graphics behind them differ.

@Mike
Quote:
I think the reason for what you see of Märklin users only buying the Märklin controller is a desire to have a plug and play solution with components that are all designed to work together,

This argument is not entirely 'valid'. This is kinda true for every brand. Roco works well with Roco but Roco also works with Lenz or digitraxx or... name it. It is also true that marklin stuffs works well with other marklin stuffs, but it does not work with anything else. When I unboxed my z21, I connected it to the tracks, inserted the lokomaus2, entered address 8 and I could drive instantly. In a mobile or central station you still have to enter a loco in a loco list. + like bigdaddy pointed out. He already bought tonnes of marklin stuffs and now he is basically stuck with it. All the other brands on the other hand sell things which are interchangeable with oneanother. There are more brands selling multi protocol centrales with XpressNet and Loconet which are interchangable. And most can work with the same standard DCC boosters (which ofcourse also work with MM2). This means that you get to swap out your central for another if you want to. Once you have those overprized can bus boosters of marklin under your tracks, you don't get to walk away from your central stations anymore because you would also have to replace all your boosters.

Kind regards,

Bas
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#13 Posted : 21 June 2021 13:48:27(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,912
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
Also I dont know if this is entirely true. But I thought that the control panels on central stations 2 and 3 are not entirely compatible because the graphics behind them differ.


That's what the latest update for the CS2 fixes, the same update that removes remote support for the CS1.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#14 Posted : 21 June 2021 14:00:53(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,912
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
Nobody here, mr Clapcott included, seems to knew this.


You're making an assumption there. Since Peter has referred to that CS2 CAN document on the forum a few times I suspect he probably does know that. You could always make a polite enquiry to find out!

Online kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 21 June 2021 16:23:04(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,151
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
I found something interesting in an online PDF of (suprisingly) marklin


maybe you should look at version 2.0 of that document, you have linked to version 1.0 which is 4 years older ...

Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post

@franciscohg Maybe that you can solve your issue now. You apparantly got the right advice of marklin, but perhaps they forgot to mention that you had to alter settings in the central station??

From what I read of it. Is that all CAN bus messages CAN also be transmitted via ethernet. I do want to try out the master slave system now. I am curious about the results. At this point I suspect that I can use it as controller and that S88 info will be relayed, but at this time I do not know whether the slave's booster will function.


It has long been known that the CAN messages go via Ethernet - this has been known since the cs1 information became available. That is exactly how the cs2 PC application program talks to a cs2 or cs1, and is exactly how programs like iTrain, Rocrail, Railroad & Co, JMRI and many others work with the Marklin controllers.

Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post

This is why I don't just assume statements of somebody, not even of experienced people or people with a lot of posts. Nobody here, mr Clapcott included, seems to knew this. Marklin's customer service also has not responded at all. This is why I am critical, why I need to have some proof. Marklin's drawings with canbus cable were simply not enough evidence that certain things could work fine without the can cable. And this is where this thread is all about.


And this is why people that come on here appearing to be a 'know it all' and lambasting long established members who are well experienced in these products get an earful (or an eyeful in the case of reading matter).

Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post

Last week I used a Viessman 5552 relay to make the electrical sluice between the 2 circuits. Absolute fail-safe operation. Now I have to electrically wire the bridge before I can actually send a train over it. So I definitely won't be using synchronized rail signals.


I don't understand what you mean here by 'sluice'.

Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post

@igdaddynz, I don't know if this is of any interest of you. Like I mentioned, I got a roco WLAN maus working. I can control a train on 2 separate central stations. The maus has already proven to be a valuable asset. It is really useful to be able to control a train or turnout from every position. I am also going to bring my z21 to the railway club and see if I can get the same results using the XpressNet interface. This should work fine. There are also cheaper ways (~€40,-) of adding Xnet to Itrain.

What I want to say is:
Quote:
Maybe iTrains is the way to bridge all of these devices......

Yes it can do pricisely that among much more. You can optionally also automate certain things and or use the computer to control turnout streets for instance. It is a rather expensive program. The standard version costs a whopping €209. But for that amount + a €40 for an X-net interface you do get to add XpressNet to your marklin layout there are also Loconet interfaces available. + you would have about €550 left to buy 2nd hand multimauses provided you won't be purchasing an €800 Cs3+. On exchanges you often can find these mauses for ~€50 or even less. I myself am using a 2nd hand roco lokmaus 2 for €22,-. It is an old primitive thing, but it works well.


Yep, well i have two cs2s and they didn't cost me anything like the price you are quoting, they can also be bought second hand.

We also have a member of this forum who went the Lenz route who now has a cs3 and loudly lauds its praises.

Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post

So if want just the 2 red knobs you can go spend €800,- and you will have your 2 red knobs on a fixed position.

Or you buy iTrain, X-net interface, get an old laptop or other PC (also works on raspberry Pi) and lets say 2 multimauses and you get to hold these 2 red knobs (which are than black knobs BigGrin ) in your hand and you will be able to plug them in everywhere on your layout using Xnet. And all this for halve the money.


And there are other ways of doing what you are proposing for even less money, but as you seem to have decided that the advice you have been given here is all wrong I won't worry about expanding on it.

Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post

Also I dont know if this is entirely true. But I thought that the control panels on central stations 2 and 3 are not entirely compatible because the graphics behind them differ.

@Mike
Quote:
I think the reason for what you see of Märklin users only buying the Märklin controller is a desire to have a plug and play solution with components that are all designed to work together,

This argument is not entirely 'valid'. This is kinda true for every brand. Roco works well with Roco but Roco also works with Lenz or digitraxx or... name it. It is also true that marklin stuffs works well with other marklin stuffs, but it does not work with anything else. When I unboxed my z21, I connected it to the tracks, inserted the lokomaus2, entered address 8 and I could drive instantly. In a mobile or central station you still have to enter a loco in a loco list. + like bigdaddy pointed out. He already bought tonnes of marklin stuffs and now he is basically stuck with it. All the other brands on the other hand sell things which are interchangeable with oneanother. There are more brands selling multi protocol centrales with XpressNet and Loconet which are interchangable. And most can work with the same standard DCC boosters (which ofcourse also work with MM2). This means that you get to swap out your central for another if you want to. Once you have those overprized can bus boosters of marklin under your tracks, you don't get to walk away from your central stations anymore because you would also have to replace all your boosters.

Kind regards,

Bas


My only comment on your attempt to use Ethernet to connect the two central stations together is that their track outputs WILL NOT be synchronized if it works, so will need to be fully isolated from each other. attempting to run a train between the two is likely to cause problems with the likelihood of damage to the output stages of both cs2s being very high. THAT is why Marklin use the CAN cable between the central stations as one provides the track output signal, and the output stage of the other is synchronised to it, allowing trains to cross the isolation between the two without causing damage to the booster sections of either cs. I can't understand your insistence on using Ethernet to link them, the cost of the required CAN cable is minimal.

And you obviously haven't done your homework very well, there is an adapter that connects to the Marklin CAN bus to allow connection of older Marklin 6015/6017 boosters. The 6015 interface is well documented and would be a connection point for almost any booster that is isolated from the drive signal, again this is widely documented on the internet way before Marklin came out with the central stations.
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Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 21 June 2021 16:42:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,202
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I don't understand what you mean here by 'sluice'.
I guess it's like a sluice on a river. One gate opens, ship goes in, water level goes up or down, other gate opens and ship goes out.
A sluice track will get power from one side while the train drives in, will then be without power (both gates closed), and will then get power from the other side while the train drives out.
Safer than a centre-rail rocker.
The protocol mfx may be a bad choice for that type of operation.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Online kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 21 June 2021 21:39:40(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,151
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
I don't understand what you mean here by 'sluice'.
I guess it's like a sluice on a river. One gate opens, ship goes in, water level goes up or down, other gate opens and ship goes out.
A sluice track will get power from one side while the train drives in, will then be without power (both gates closed), and will then get power from the other side while the train drives out.
Safer than a centre-rail rocker.
The protocol mfx may be a bad choice for that type of operation.



I figure it is something like this, seeing he talks of a switch, but for the cost of a cable he doesn't need a switch (which will be a reasonable percentage cost of the required cable).

Offline bask185  
#18 Posted : 22 June 2021 12:15:38(UTC)
bask185

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Noord-Holland, Alkmaar
I learned long ago that good intentions are not always enough. The tone in written words can easily be misinterpreted...

Quote:
You're making an assumption there. Since Peter has referred to that CS2 CAN document on the forum a few times I suspect he probably does know that. You could always make a polite enquiry to find out!

Yes, yes you are right. I made a wrong assumption based on the information I had at that time.

As mr C's comment lacked any form of actual help or good intentions. I misinterpreted the overal vibe as negative. Therefor I was convinced I was being trolled/insulted and he made me believe he did not read my question or did not know anything about it. Precisely like I typed. Or how kiwiAlan put it:
Quote:
lambasting long established members who are well experienced in these products
.

About assumptions.. these
Quote:
So the answer to your questions are
#1 No
#2 The slave unit will not receive any information from the master
#3 No

are apparently also wrong assumptions. But I most certainly don't hold it against you, after al these assumptions were also made on logic.

This
Quote:
In those documents it is clear that you need to connect the master / slave CS3's by way of the 60123 can bus cable. This implies that all communication between the master and slave is done across that cable.

is simply true. I do completely agree with you that the documents offered by marklin indeed imply this.

@kiwiAlan My comment may have been a spark which set of oil in fire. But try to imagine if mr C would have typed:
Quote:
All can bus messages can be pushed over ethernet, so you can go without the cable
.
If he would have typed that instead of:
Quote:
... and are asking 3 questions about this exact environment, I think we are mostly thinking to ourselves "why can you not answer your own questions"

this. Than there also would not be a fire in the first place. So I am not the only spark. Besides I tried putting it out, and now you are just adding more needlessly oil on the fire.

I read mr C's comment as:
Quote:
You are dumb that you cannot figure this out by yourself

And now everybody is mad at me for making a wrong assumption. Well sorry mate. I jjust cannot stand being trolled or insulted...

Btw... as you, captain hindsight
Quote:
It has long been known that the CAN messages go via Ethernet - this has been known since the cs1 information became available.

is now pointing out, mr C clearly knew the answers. Btw bigdaddy did also not know, so perhaps it may be that it is slightly less known as you might think. I googled this problem for days without finding that one outdated document.

Knowing this, I can now also interpreter
Quote:
... and are asking 3 questions about this exact environment, I think we are mostly thinking to ourselves "why can you not answer your own questions"

As:
Quote:
I know the answers but I am not giving them to you.


Do you honestly think it strange why I was holy convinced that the comment was not ment to be helpful?
And do you think that this comment is a strong indication that mr C knows everything about the subject?

I know that you can sometimes better teach a man to fish than to give him a fish when he is hungry. But for questions this does not apply. I know how to perform google searches and read manuals...

Quote:
I don't understand what you mean here by 'sluice'.

Quote:
I figure it is something like this, seeing he talks of a switch

I am getting the feeling that your are either deliberately misinterpreting everything I am saying and only focus on the negativity.. or you did not read everything. I am guessing it is the latter. In the first post I explained clearly. I never talked of no switch.

In the first post:
Quote:
Electrically this can be done galvanically isolated by making a transition part where I use a relay to switch from one Cs3 to the other.

And later on I used the phrase 'sluice' and told I am using a Viesmann 5552 relay to achieve this.

I of course may be misinterpreting this. But
Quote:
My only comment on your attempt to use Ethernet to connect the two central stations together is that their track outputs WILL NOT be synchronized if it works, so will need to be fully isolated from each other. attempting to run a train between the two is likely to cause problems with the likelihood of damage to the output stages of both cs2s being very high. THAT is why Marklin use the CAN cable between the central stations as one provides the track output signal, and the output stage of the other is synchronised to it, allowing trains to cross the isolation between the two without causing damage to the booster sections of either cs. I can't understand your insistence on using Ethernet to link them, the cost of the required CAN cable is minimal.

I explained in great detail how I was going to solve it. I explained myself that I already knew that the can cable is used for rail synchronisation. You are now repeating what I said.

Myself:
Quote:
I am aware that the rail signals are also present in this cable, so that the slave central station's power unit will act as a booster device.

I find it difficult to receive such comments. You obviously don't read what I typed, than you repeat everything I said earlier. And you did not hold back on the direct and implied insults. You call me a know-it-al because? I explained that there is an option to add X-net to a marklin system? I thought it would be a useful thing to point out. And you say that I don't do my homework.
Quote:
And you obviously haven't done your homework very well, there is an adapter that connects to the Marklin CAN bus to allow connection of older Marklin 6015/6017 boosters.

We do not even have these boosters? We already have those overpriced black things with attached can-bus cable. So why start about this? You are burning me for making a false assumption towards mr C (which in my defence had valid reasons as I explained) and now you do the exact same thing and than sum. Just because you are mad at me?

Quote:
but as you seem to have decided that the advice you have been given here is all wrong I won't worry about expanding on it.

Why this? Just why? I have not even received any actual advice which I could dismiss other than to use the can cable which turned out not to be correct advice in retrospect.

Before you become mad at me, which I believe you already were. Try to understand what I just said. You are making the discussion far worse than it already was. And I did not even want a discussion. I only wanted the answer were mr C is apparently sitting on. You are actually behaving far worse than I did. I explained myself three times now why I typed to mr C what I typed. And I have pointed out that you did not read everything as you have repeated almost my exact words. Followed by implications that I am the one who does not know what he is doing. You say to us:
Quote:
I don't understand what you mean here by 'sluice'.

How can you know if I am damaging our systems if you do not even know what it is I am doing?


Can we now please leave it al behind. We have problems to solve and trains to drive.

Quote:
And there are other ways of doing what you are proposing for even less money,

Please indulge all of us. And don't do it for me. Perhaps you can save bigdaddy a couple of 100 bucks. What is, according to you, the cheapest possible way to add X-net to all our marklin systems?

I myself thought of sort of arduino bridge between marklin's can-bus and X-net but it is at the bottem on my to do list and I expect to run in to limitations or other problems like a 10 loco slot max and such. But this point I could not tell to be honest.

Quote:
Yep, well i have two cs2s and they didn't cost me anything like the price you are quoting, they can also be bought second hand

I was talking about Cs3+ which are offered by marklin for €799,- today. I see that you could get them for ~€699 at Lippe's. Also I would not recommend buying a 2nd hand device for that amount of money. You can save alot perhaps but what if you don't have guarantees and it suddenly turns out that the S88 connection is defective? You will be set back 500~600€. With a multimaus you can say the same, but in worst case you would be set back €50 and not €600. Just my 2 cents ughh 200€ BigGrin

Quote:
I guess it's like a sluice on a river. One gate opens, ship goes in, water level goes up or down, other gate opens and ship goes out.
A sluice track will get power from one side while the train drives in, will then be without power (both gates closed), and will then get power from the other side while the train drives out.
Safer than a centre-rail rocker.

Yes, this precisely. In dutch a sluice is called sluis and a sluis is precisely what you described. We therefor use the word 'spanningssluis' which litterly translates to voltage sluice. This is that 'thing' that real railways use to handle the voltage differences between railways often found by border crossings. I decided to go for the phrase electrical sluice thinking it would be clear enough in combination with my first post's explanation. Google translate came with 'voltage lock'. As I am not English I was not entirely sure if that translation was better than mine. The German word for 'it' is 'Systemtrennstelle'. Google does not recognize this word. And there was no English wikipedia about the voltage sluices.

Quote:
The protocol mfx may be a bad choice for that type of operation.

Yes it is. Besides misinterpreting intentions I am also prone to preach that all mFx decoders should have the mFx protocol disabled and that MM2 should be used instead. We often have problems with mFx decoders which switch from one central to the other alot.

The transition part is > 2.5 meters (longer than our longest train). The centre part's (or sluice's) insulations lie in the middle of 30cm contact rails. So a train has atleast 15cm of contact rail to trigger the relay before the middle sleeper reaches the insulation. The contact rails are directly connected to the the Viesmann coils. In this setup it does not matter if a train enters or leaves the sluice, the relay will always switch to that circuit to which the train is traveling to or from. 100% fool proof. The physical bridge itself will power the adjacent parts. If the bridge is not placed, the surround tracks will become powerless. I also added wooden arms with which I can physically the connections to the bridge. I lost one of my own loco's to a 1.4m fall.

There is one small detail that I did not mention. It is not really important. There are three people at the club, one of them being the president, who keeps yelling at me that both layouts also need to be able to work in stand-alone mode at all times but he wants this connection more than anybody. And not one of them is very familiar with the systems or technology for that matter. Were the choise up to me, I would sell both Cs3 devices and their boosters and power supplies, purchase one whole Z21 or a cheaper tams red box with easy to turn off/on boosters. And both layouts could be plugged in to one central with a switch separately. No dual loco lists, no railsignal synch problems, no master slave, no dependencies. But as we already have spend a good €2000 on it, we are forced to keep using them so now I simply try to make the best of it and add X-net in the process. Anyways because of these 3 people, the voltage sluice exists. One of the layouts uses just one booster. I wanted to relocate the booster to the other layout and lay really thick copper lines to transfer the power, but I cannot sell this idea and scream that both layouts are 100% independed at the same time Glare .

Kind regards,

Bas

Offline mvd71  
#19 Posted : 23 June 2021 08:45:10(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,403
Location: Auckland,
Bas,

The people here generally do want to help, but perhaps we have all gotten off on the wrong foot?

I personally can’t give the answers you seek, but given what you have described as the requirements being asked of you by non technical people in your club, you most certainly have my sympathy.

Regards,

Mike
Offline bask185  
#20 Posted : 23 June 2021 12:56:29(UTC)
bask185

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Noord-Holland, Alkmaar
Thank you.

I must admit another thing. The creator of iTrain just informed me that you cannot (yet) use his program to let central stations react to an XpressNet device. So I also offered wrong advice. Sorry 'bout that. The manual implied this idea a little bit.

Quote:
The Lenz interfaces have the option ‘Locomotive polling Interval’ in milliseconds. XpressNet informs iTrain about many changes, but not of the state of handhelds that are controlling locs. However it does inform iTrain when a train is taken over by a handheld. iTrain will regularly read the locomotive information when a loc is taken over by a handheld, to know the speed and functions. A good default value is 100 ms.


Anyways the good guy also told me that it could be done with Loconet, if I understood correctly. I am still waiting on a repons with verification and some more details. If that works in the best case scenario, I can either use Loconet for my projects or create an X-net to Loconet adapter myself. So far I have not found an other way to add XpressNet but this problem is for a different topic on a different Forum perhaps.

If all this fails, I am going to have a hard time pursuading certain people that we are better of with a tams red box. Or I simply give up X-net/L-net altogather. I already found a method to interact with the marklin can bus boosters BigGrin.

Kind regards,

Bas

Offline Goofy  
#21 Posted : 23 June 2021 18:12:34(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,427
I must agree that Bas has a good point about CAN cable and some fault with the digital system.
What cable do you use?
A cable with the shield or without?
What i know does CS3+ do have galvanized while CS3 are without.
I do not believe Märklins system by connect all other old system without having problem by interrupt and fail.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#22 Posted : 23 June 2021 22:35:22(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,912
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
What i know does CS3+ do have galvanized while CS3 are without.


Marklin have confirmed that both CS3 and CS3+ have galvanic isolation.

https://www.marklin-user...-Upgrade-from-CS1-to-CS3 - See post #37
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Offline bask185  
#23 Posted : 24 June 2021 18:00:35(UTC)
bask185

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Noord-Holland, Alkmaar
Funny that we are talking about galvanic insulation. I had a most unexpected experience last Thursday on the club. And I am still not sure why...Confused

The voltage 'sluice' is on a part of tracks with lies on top of a 2-rail track of out neighbors. I used a small metal screw driver, I touched the red line (or perhaps the brown) which was directly tied to a 60175 booster, and be damned it hurt. I felt like atleast 50V and it propably was even 230V. The track power was enabled, so I walked to the Cs3 thinking this puny 19V cannot be what I felt, I turned power off. And still... I touch the red line again, and it still hurts.Cursing

I started measuring between brown and red with an AC voltage meter, 0 Volts.. So I touched it again and it was gone?

Than I realised that the voltage I felt was a potential difference between our layout and the 2-rail layout. I found out after I touched their tracks with my knee at the same moment I was touching our red line. I suddenly noticed that my knee was being elektrocuted and my finger started to hurt again.

Because some parts were hard to reach I was continously holding my hand on the 2 rail-tracks (which were also powered down).

Again I am not sure why it was happening? My body was clearly shorting a power circuit with the phase line and the 0 line through both our layouts. So I could not entirely feel that galvanic insulation last week Crying. But what happened? It shouldnt be possible..

Do them black boosters also have galvanic insulation?

Bas
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 24 June 2021 18:20:41(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,202
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: bask185 Go to Quoted Post
Do them black boosters also have galvanic insulation?
The 60174 and 60175 boosters have galvanic insulation, the 60173 do not. The 60173 can be sent to Märklin to get a replacement with galvanic insulation.

Officially a single device without galvanic insulation on the layout does not lead to any problems.

High voltages between outer rail and house ground while using modern Märklin switching-mode power-supplies have been reported several times before. So far the amps always were so low that there was no real risk.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Jay
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#25 Posted : 25 June 2021 00:24:40(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,912
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
High voltages between outer rail and house ground while using modern Märklin switching-mode power-supplies have been reported several times before.


Big long thread about it here:

https://www.marklin-user...ctrical-shock-from-rails
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H0
Offline mvd71  
#26 Posted : 25 June 2021 05:56:25(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,403
Location: Auckland,
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
High voltages between outer rail and house ground while using modern Märklin switching-mode power-supplies have been reported several times before.


Big long thread about it here:

https://www.marklin-user...ctrical-shock-from-rails


Not just the old blue transformers that are dangerous RollEyes
Offline bask185  
#27 Posted : 25 June 2021 14:45:04(UTC)
bask185

Netherlands   
Joined: 04/06/2021(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Noord-Holland, Alkmaar
Hm interesting read, much informative. Especially that last post over the PSU's

Yesterday evenening, I quickly put one the Cs devices in slave mode. And unfortunately, the slave unit will not output it's own track signals anymore. Like discussed earlier I already anticipated this outcome.

All the otherrrr stuff did work. Loco lists were synchronized and I got to control trains and turnouts on the other layout. And I did not test but I believe that the

I broke the problem down to 3 solutions:
- The first being the original setup, so 2 master devices separated by the working 'voltage sluice'. Drawback is that loco's which are too travel between layouts are to be manually added to both central stations. So in al likeliness this already excludes decoders which have mFx protocol active. The advantage is that the central stations have no dependencies

- The 2nd option, would be master-slave system without canbus/rail synch cable. This would force us to relocate the booster from the slave side to the master side and draw 2 thick wires to transfer the power. All boosters would be on the same circuit. Advantage is that the loco list are synchronized automatically and mFx trains also get to transition between the 2 layouts.
Drawback would be that the members of the first layouts would have to walk to the other layouts to turn on the master CS3+. And this comes with complains such as : "I don't want to walk that way over there" (15s work but okay). And "I do not even know how to turn their system on" (eventhough theirs is almost identical and the passwords are all written down, and they could just 'learn' 60 seconds work perhaps?)

- Option 3 would be to manufacture a can bus cable and use the master-slave system as marklin intended. Advantages, we can live without the sluice system, we have synched loco lists, I don't have to relocate the booster, and you can switch real fast from slave to master.

I explained everything to a more sympathic fellow clubmember. I explained our 3 options. And he also concluded that I picked the right one, so the separate master system.

I am going to give up the XpressNet addition. iTrain cannot use an Xnet interface to control trains on an other interface. It might on one day. This however can be done with Loconet instead. I already found a program with which L-net messages can be transceived from L-net bus to the computer over TCP and vice versa. I could modify the program to swap out the L-net bus part to work with a physical X-net bus instead. But I simply do not want to do that. I would need to convert an X-net packett to an L-net packett but it will propably cost me more than time than I'd like it too. I will inquire this with mr Ghatow first, I think.

So to remotely control trains we are limited to the WLAN maus options and for turnouts I want to use S88 contacts. I can make control panels with it.

Kind regards,

Bas
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