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Offline Harvey  
#1 Posted : 14 March 2021 01:34:22(UTC)
Harvey

United States   
Joined: 17/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 546
Location: Glen Oaks, N.Y.
Hi

I have a CS 2 and use K track on my passenger line. I use the S88(s) along with reeds and circuit tracks to activate signals and turn outs. I recently introduces circuit tracks as some reeds have failed or are not responding consistently. I am thinking of introducing some contact tracks but am not sure I understand sufficient details. For my education (and hopefully others) I have posed several questions.

Scenario 1. Simple station with entrance from the left and exit to the right. Signals at each end.
Track 2295 (page 217 of the 2020-2021 catalogue) indicates this can be lengthened as desired. For now, assume just these 2 tracks are used along with one other standard (180mm) section so as to match Marklin's suggestion of 2 track lenght. This would be placed at the exit, just before the signal. When a train (any set of wheels) is sitting on this section of track, the entrance signal would be turned red. When the train leaves, the entrance signal would turned green. The wiring would be as follows: 1 wire to the ground of the S88 and the other wire to one of the S88 inputs. P 94 of the "Running Trains Digitally with the Central Station 3' book shows a slightly different picture. Likely the instructions for 2295 show how this should be wired. But any explanation here would be appreciated.

Scenario 2. If the entire station area was included in the contact region (ie, beginning of the contact area is at the entrance and the end is at the exit) then once the first car (locomotive) entered the station area, the entrance signal would turn red. And when the last car left the station area, the entrance signal would turn green. If, a car detached from the consist and was sitting in the station, the entrance signal would stay red. This is a safety feature Marklin explains. Is this correct? Other things to consider?

Scenario . Marklin suggests a braking module (72442) be used to safely slow the locomotive. The would be a 3 track section. Another set of questions. Assume the breaking section is the last 3 tracks in the station (to the right). Would this be the way to set up both the braking section and the contact. One part of the contact track is at the entrance, the second part at the exit. The braking section would include 3 tracks, the last being the contact track. Correct? The description of 72442 mentions this works for digital locomotive with high-efficiency propulsion. Without reading the manual for each of my locomotives, is there a way to determine a locomotive is 'high-efficiency propulsion'?

It seems that scenario 2 can be applied to every block on the layout, with one piece of 2295 at the beginning and other other part at the end of each block. This would prevent the following locomotive from entering if a car detaches from the lead train. Are there any issues with this? One that comes to mind is the following. If the pick up shoe is at the back of the locomotive, the front wheels will enter the next block and turn a signal red of the prior block. Placement of the stop sections need to consider this property of contact tracks.

Thanks
Harvey

Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 14 March 2021 16:16:36(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,562
Location: Paris, France
Hi Harvey

Here are my comments on your scenarios:

Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
I have a CS 2 and use K track on my passenger line. I use the S88(s) along with reeds and circuit tracks to activate signals and turn outs. I recently introduces circuit tracks as some reeds have failed or are not responding consistently. I am thinking of introducing some contact tracks but am not sure I understand sufficient details. For my education (and hopefully others) I have posed several questions.

Scenario 1. Simple station with entrance from the left and exit to the right. Signals at each end.
Track 2295 (page 217 of the 2020-2021 catalogue) indicates this can be lengthened as desired. For now, assume just these 2 tracks are used along with one other standard (180mm) section so as to match Marklin's suggestion of 2 track lenght. This would be placed at the exit, just before the signal. When a train (any set of wheels) is sitting on this section of track, the entrance signal would be turned red. When the train leaves, the entrance signal would turned green. The wiring would be as follows: 1 wire to the ground of the S88 and the other wire to one of the S88 inputs. P 94 of the "Running Trains Digitally with the Central Station 3' book shows a slightly different picture. Likely the instructions for 2295 show how this should be wired.


Scenario 1 All you say is correct EXCEPT This there should be ONLY ONE connection between the ground and your S88 system (otherwise there will be current circulating in the S88s generating noise and possibly destroying them). The other wire should be connected to one of the S88 inputs

Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
Scenario 2. If the entire station area was included in the contact region (ie, beginning of the contact area is at the entrance and the end is at the exit) then once the first car (locomotive) entered the station area, the entrance signal would turn red. And when the last car left the station area, the entrance signal would turn green. If, a car detached from the consist and was sitting in the station, the entrance signal would stay red. This is a safety feature Marklin explains. Is this correct? Other things to consider?

Scenario . Marklin suggests a braking module (72442) be used to safely slow the locomotive. The would be a 3 track section. Another set of questions. Assume the breaking section is the last 3 tracks in the station (to the right). Would this be the way to set up both the braking section and the contact. One part of the contact track is at the entrance, the second part at the exit. The braking section would include 3 tracks, the last being the contact track. Correct? The description of 72442 mentions this works for digital locomotive with high-efficiency propulsion. Without reading the manual for each of my locomotives, is there a way to determine a locomotive is 'high-efficiency propulsion'?

It seems that scenario 2 can be applied to every block on the layout, with one piece of 2295 at the beginning and other other part at the end of each block. This would prevent the following locomotive from entering if a car detaches from the lead train. Are there any issues with this? One that comes to mind is the following. If the pick up shoe is at the back of the locomotive, the front wheels will enter the next block and turn a signal red of the prior block. Placement of the stop sections need to consider this property of contact tracks.



scenario 2: you could have the entire length of a track connected to an S88 entry. On the CS2 you create 2 Memory actions:
* one when the train enters the section to set the previous signal on RED and possibly an advance signal to ORANGE
* a second one when the entire section is free so to set the previous signal to GREEN and possibly an advance signal to GREEN
* when using a stop section (your case I think) then this section must be WITHIN the detection zone (so the train stops BEFORE)
Below is an example of a CS2 screen to set a memory entry.
Notice at bottom of screen the address (center) and the loco entering a zone (center right) This means in this case that entry 29 when starting to be occupied with run the set of commands on the screen's right. Another symbol of a loco leaving the track allows you to run a set of commands when entry 29 starts to be free.
memory - edit.png

Of course you can use a brake module for smooth operation. I have tried it and it is very fine for a small number of signal but it becomes a pain in the neck when there are many of them (not to mention the additional costs).
I don't know if you are ready for this but I changed for PC controlled trains using (at the time) my CS2 and Rocrail). Many differences but 3 in particular:
* trains will change their speed smoothly (so no need for brake modules)
* no need for stop sections (the train is ordered to stop digitally but remains with sounds and lights ON.
* If the track length in station is divided in 2 zones: one 20 cm long zone for stopping and the rest to slow down then you have simply and econically your operation.

Here is an example on my layout of Rocrail operation


If you need more info on PC controlled trains let me know
Cheers
Jean




My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
Offline Harvey  
#3 Posted : 15 March 2021 14:42:35(UTC)
Harvey

United States   
Joined: 17/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 546
Location: Glen Oaks, N.Y.
Jean

Thank you for this detailed response and sharing that wonderful video. Impressive - both the smoothness of the operation and the layout with wonderful scenery and accessories (in particular the coaling station and water refill),

Currently, I am thinking about contact sections - likely I'll install 1 and learn from this. Computer, with CS2, may be down the road. I am not looking to use brake sections but wanted to understand how that interacts with a contact section.

One clarification. In scenario 1, I did intend to say that 1 wire of the contact track goes to the ground of the S88 and the other wire to one of the S88 inputs. I believe you are stating the same.

One follow up on Computer control. The functionality you describe in the 3 bullet points suggest that sensors are needed so as to tell the computer that a train (any train) is in a section and then the computer can execute recorded steps. Correct? What type sensor?

One new question. On the picture of the CS2 you included I see that the loc symbol (to the right of the box with 29, bottom center) is to the left. This is the box labeled 'Fl.' Somewhere I had read that loc image should be moved to the right of the box. Do you know the implication or intent of the loc image being to the left or to the right? I have set all my memory items to the right and all the sensor and execution steps work as intended.

Again,
Thanks
Harvey
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 15 March 2021 18:40:19(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,562
Location: Paris, France
Hi Harvey
Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post

Currently, I am thinking about contact sections - likely I'll install 1 and learn from this. Computer, with CS2, may be down the road. I am not looking to use brake sections but wanted to understand how that interacts with a contact section.


The base principle of the brake module is a switch to connect the stop section either to digital or to DC voltage (which will bring the loco, slowly to a halt).

Alas, it is more complicated. Why? Because under no circumstances, the digital "current" should never ever be connected to AC or DC. So, before the stop section, there is an interface zone (90 mm long) connected to a specific output of the brake module (a one way rectification of the digital signal when the loco must stop.

A third zone is the safety zone: when the signal is red then this section is not powered.

So to answer your question: you need to have 3 consecutive insulated zones:
1 the interface zone (90 mm or so)
2 the slow-down and stop zone (up to you from 100 mm up to 400mm?)
3 the safety zone (90 mm or so) to prevent , if the loco does not stop in time, it will stop abruptly when reaching the safety zone.

This is why the brake module is such a pain when you have many of them.

Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
The functionality you describe in the 3 bullet points suggest that sensors are needed so as to tell the computer that a train (any train) is in a section and then the computer can execute recorded steps. Correct? What type sensor?


You may have one sensor or 2 sensors per block or more (2 sensors are most usual and recommended).
Then when the train reaches the first zone it slows down from cruising speed to the station speed.
When the train reaches the second zone (typically 20 cm before the signal), the loco stops smoothly before the signal.

With only one sensor per block, when reaching the sensor zone, the loco stops from cruising speed. So less prototypical and the stop position is much less precise.

Which sensor type? I recommend the contact rail (one of side rails is insulated) much better than Reed contacts and slider-operated contact rails.

Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
One new question. On the picture of the CS2 you included I see that the loc symbol (to the right of the box with 29, bottom center) is to the left. This is the box labeled 'Fl.' Somewhere I had read that loc image should be moved to the right of the box. Do you know the implication or intent of the loc image being to the left or to the right? I have set all my memory items to the right and all the sensor and execution steps work as intended.


The zone labelled Fl is to set WHICH flank of the signal will start the sequence. Loco entering the zone means the sequence will start when the train is ENTERING the zone. Conversely with the symbol of a loco leaving the station, the sequence will be activated when the loco LEAVES the zone.

Cheers
Jean
My layout videos
latest vid
hump yard
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