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Offline ccbyrne  
#1 Posted : 18 January 2021 20:16:04(UTC)
ccbyrne

United States   
Joined: 16/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 6
How do freight operations work in Europe- say a freight train originates in Germany and the destination of the freight is France or Switzerland, does the German locomotive pull German freight cars through different countries or do the locomotives/cars change at the borders?

Just curious- thanks!
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 18 January 2021 20:23:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,202
Location: DE-NW
In era VI the loco often drives the whole way. I see many foreign locos hauling freight trains in Germany.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline danmarklinman  
#3 Posted : 18 January 2021 22:06:48(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,264
Hi, back about 15 years and all but a few trains with duel voltage locomotives use to change at the Belgium/ French border. At for instance, Jeumont. Trains enter the yard with pantographs down as they role to a stop. The loco is changed as power to the overhead is switcher-able. Some of the Freights heading for France if duel voltage or diesel hauled run through to Somain marshalling yard. We’re the trains are re-marshalled and the Belgium electric or diesel heads back with a re-turning freight.
At the end of the day you could make it up 😆
But if you think about it, trains running through your layout if they don’t use the same current in real life can simply be running to a stop somewhere else 👍😆
It’s quite unusual to see a full length freight coasting through a station without power in reel life 👍. I sat on Jeumont station all day watching this take place with both French and Belgium locomotives.
Jeumont is a shadow of its former self as it use to have a very large yard along side the station and it’s large station building use to have customs staff ect. Now freights run through to yards beyond, with most freights being handled by Traxx 186 and Alstom 36000 astride, class 66 diesels and SNCF class 67400. I would think that vectrons will not be long
Hope this helps 👍 Dan
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Online kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 18 January 2021 22:11:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,151
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ccbyrne Go to Quoted Post
How do freight operations work in Europe- say a freight train originates in Germany and the destination of the freight is France or Switzerland, does the German locomotive pull German freight cars through different countries or do the locomotives/cars change at the borders?

Just curious- thanks!


As Tom (H0) said, often the one loco will take it the whole way. That is why there are a range of electric locomotives with multiple pantographs to handle the multiple voltages used across Europe.

I don't know what the situation is with how far an individual driver will go with a train, I assume that there is a change of driver at regular intervals. I would also assume this is reliant on a driver knowing the route the train is taking (I know this is the situation in the UK, a driver cannot take a train over a route until trained so they know the speed limits and signalling locations).
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Offline danmarklinman  
#5 Posted : 18 January 2021 22:21:45(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,264
Here’s a cab ride featuring a sncb 186 electric driven by the same driver from Belgium to The French frontier. This guy has multiple cab rides over the border.
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Offline mike c  
#6 Posted : 19 January 2021 00:12:34(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,188
Location: Montreal, QC
This is one of my favorite aspects of European railroading, next to international passenger trains.
One of the things that drew my attention to Swiss trains, in addition to the magnificent alpine settings was the presence of international trains, be it freight or passenger, that could be found on Swiss rails.
At first, trains travelling through the country would arrive at the Swiss border, where a SBB locomotive would replace the foreign one for the run through the country.
Many freight trains in the 60s and 70s would go from marshalling yard to marshalling yard, where the train would be sorted depending on destination.
At Muttenz, for example, a train arriving from Germany would be broken down and cars heading for Zurich would be separated and sorted. Cars heading for Bern or Geneva would be triaged and added to a mixed freight train for those destinations. Cars travelling south to Italy would be added to a train which would head down the Gotthard route later that day or the next morning.
Since the 1970s, we have seen an incredible rise in the number of unit trains, that is trains operated by a private operator from Point A to Point B. This could be an Interfrigo refrigerated train hauling Bananas from Italy to Germany, after being shipped from Greece to Italy by boat. It could also consist of Fiat cars being shipped from Turin to Germany and VW being shipped from Germany to the Italian market. It might also consist of German steel being shipped to Italy or Coal being shipped south. The 1970s also marked the rise of container traffic, at that time, still sorted along the way.
Today, we see private operators with their own tractive material, which means that foreign locomotives, belonging to private companies or to national railways, can now be found operating in other countries. We also see an incredible amount of contracted private trains running from Point A to Point B, which is then hauled by a subcontracted operator. Much of this traffic consists of container carloads, running from Channel Ports or North Sea ports south to Italy, France and Spain or east to Austria, Hungary and beyond.
By now, most of the national railways now have Cargo Operations, which book contracts for these private trains, so you can find SBB locomotives in Holland, Germany, Austria and Italy. You can find German locomotives in parts of Switzerland, in Italy, in Austria and so on.
Each country has specific requirements, be it pantographs (depending on catenary design), safety systems, lights, cab design and operators in that country have to meet those requirements.
Modern loks like the 185, 189, Taurus, Vectron, etc can be outfitted for various countries, making it easier for railroads to operate outside of their borders.

For me, it has meant that where I used to have only SBB locomotives, I now have to add German and others loks to my collection.

It makes for very colourful operations.

Here is a Youtube page with many videos of international trains in Switzerland; https://www.youtube.com/c/REOSRailway/videos

Regards

Mike C
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Offline ccbyrne  
#7 Posted : 19 January 2021 02:33:54(UTC)
ccbyrne

United States   
Joined: 16/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 6
Thanks for the responses everyone, very informative!

I recently acquired an SBB Vectron and was wondering whether the cars would generally be all SBB or various rail companies. From what I gather it sounds like it's pretty likely it would be hauling mixed cars.



Offline Wildrose-Wally  
#8 Posted : 19 January 2021 02:51:45(UTC)
Wildrose-Wally

Canada   
Joined: 22/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 524
Location: Sunny Southern Alberta
Even though they don't change locomotives anymore, I think they do change drivers at the border, like in germany it would be a German driver at the controls, in France a French driver, etc.
Offline danmarklinman  
#9 Posted : 19 January 2021 07:42:17(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,264
Originally Posted by: Wildrose-Wally Go to Quoted Post
Even though they don't change locomotives anymore, I think they do change drivers at the border, like in germany it would be a German driver at the controls, in France a French driver, etc.


Hi, it appears not. The video of a cross border freight is driven by guy called Pierre Lorent who drives the freights across the Belgium frontier regularly. So as long as they no the route they can drive!!
Marklin and Piko era 4 SNCB , Marklin wagons
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Offline PeFu  
#10 Posted : 19 January 2021 08:26:13(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 900
There are unfortunately a lot of barriers for international rail traffic in Europe:

- Electric power: Differencies in voltage and frequence.

- Signal system: Different in almost each country. ERTMS will help, but unfortunately there are already local differencies in how the standard is adopted.

- Vehicle: The country must approve the type of vehicle (which is not the case with road vehicles where a vehicle approved in one EU country implies OK for the whole EU).

- Gauge: Still different in eastern Europe and Finland.

- Education: The engineer must be approved for driving trains in the country.

- Language: The engineer must know the language in the country. (Ever tried to learn Swedish or Danish?)

- Work terms: Some countries have e.g. rules that the engineer has to sleep in his own bed at home, at least every second night.

In the early days, barriers were established for defense purposes. Now they are maintained for protecting national business, and of course due to the investments needed to remove the barriers. Needless to say, these are tough factors for trains competing with road transportation...

Blushing
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Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 19 January 2021 08:59:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,202
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
There are unfortunately a lot of barriers for international rail traffic in Europe:

- Electric power: Differencies in voltage and frequence.

- Signal system: Different in almost each country. ERTMS will help, but unfortunately there are already local differencies in how the standard is adopted.

- Vehicle: The country must aporove the type of vehicle (which is not the case with road vehicles where a vehicle approved in one EU country implies OK for the whole EU).[...]
The side of the loco shows the countries where the loco is allowed to operate. This can be taken into consideration when choosing rolling stock for a model.

Funny side note: For SBB Re 481 this was Germany only.

Many train pictures can be found on the Internet.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Timnomads  
#12 Posted : 19 January 2021 11:04:33(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Hi All

Does anybody know whether any Italian locos (FS) work into Switzerland, over the Gothard or Simplon route? If so, on what kind of consist?

Tim
Offline danmarklinman  
#13 Posted : 19 January 2021 11:09:26(UTC)
danmarklinman

United Kingdom   
Joined: 18/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,264
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
Hi All

Does anybody know whether any Italian locos (FS) work into Switzerland, over the Gothard or Simplon route? If so, on what kind of consist?

Tim


As far as I no it is only the gottardo TEE such as Marklin 39540 and duel voltage locos such as br189 and br186. But this is not my field👍
Marklin and Piko era 4 SNCB , Marklin wagons
Wiking model car Fan
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Offline mike c  
#14 Posted : 19 January 2021 16:47:18(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,188
Location: Montreal, QC
A long time ago, there was a FS TEE Trainset which used to run from Italy to Geneva and back.
It was replaced by a locomotive pulled consist in the 1970s, which had a Swiss Re 4/4II TEE for the segment between Geneva and Domodossola.
This preceded and overlapped with the Zurich-Milano and Paris-Milano services using the Swiss Rae TEE "Gottardo" units.

Today, there are a handful of Trenitalia (FS) ETR 610 (originally Cisalpino AG) which are being run into Switzerland on the Gotthard, Loetschberg and Rhone valley routes along with SBB ETR 610/RABe 503 "Astoro"

There are no FS Loks in regular operation in Switzerland. FS subsidiary TXL was running trains through Switzerland using leased former Crossrail BR 186. Those 186 are now in the possession of SBB Cargo/BLS Cargo and are primarily being used for the RAlpin ROLA trains between Germany and Italy. I do not know what the current arrangement for TXL is. They may have subcontracted the traction of their trains to SBB Cargo or other. There are also trains made up of cars owned by Cemat, which is a joint venture of FS and Hupac.

Other Italian operators on Swiss rails include NordCargo, which used to partner with Rails4Chem/European Bulls/BASF which has since been acquired by DB Schenker and today uses DB tractive power north of Domodossola/Chiasso.

There is also the SBB-Trenitalia cooperation in Ticino and Lombardy (TiLo) which operates in both southern Switzerland and as far as Milano. There are a number of FLIRT trainsets operating cross border as ETR 524. A model of one of these was announced by Liliput in 2020.

There are also the Thello Night Trains, pulled by SBB in Switzerland, which run from Italy to France on the Simplon/Rhone valley route. I'm not sure if this is daily or only certain days

Regards

Mike C
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Offline ccbyrne  
#15 Posted : 20 January 2021 05:07:46(UTC)
ccbyrne

United States   
Joined: 16/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
There are unfortunately a lot of barriers for international rail traffic in Europe:

- Electric power: Differencies in voltage and frequence.

- Signal system: Different in almost each country. ERTMS will help, but unfortunately there are already local differencies in how the standard is adopted.

- Vehicle: The country must approve the type of vehicle (which is not the case with road vehicles where a vehicle approved in one EU country implies OK for the whole EU).

- Gauge: Still different in eastern Europe and Finland.

- Education: The engineer must be approved for driving trains in the country.

- Language: The engineer must know the language in the country. (Ever tried to learn Swedish or Danish?)

- Work terms: Some countries have e.g. rules that the engineer has to sleep in his own bed at home, at least every second night.

In the early days, barriers were established for defense purposes. Now they are maintained for protecting national business, and of course due to the investments needed to remove the barriers. Needless to say, these are tough factors for trains competing with road transportation...

Blushing


Very helpful, thank you! In regards to "electric power", is that why you see some locos with 4 pantographs?

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Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 20 January 2021 09:14:28(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,202
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: ccbyrne Go to Quoted Post
Very helpful, thank you! In regards to "electric power", is that why you see some locos with 4 pantographs?
Yes. Not just electricity.
Germany, Austria, and Swiss use the same electricity, but due to different clearances, narrower pantographs are required for Switzerland.

The wipers are made of different materials as required in different countries.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline mike c  
#17 Posted : 20 January 2021 23:17:23(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,188
Location: Montreal, QC
I don't know if it's the exact same electricity, but it is the same voltage.
Some countries have DC powered catenary, some have AC and within each system, the voltages can be different.
Sometimes, loks have pantos for different networks, but not different voltages (Like the 185/482/485) while other versions use a similar setup for multiple systems (189/Vectron/etc)
Even if a lok is equipped for that catenary system does not mean it has all of the safety system and other equipment to operate in that country. For example, the same pantograph might be used in Italy and Holland, but the safety systems are not the same, even though there are moves to make these standards Europe wide (ETCS) etc.

Regards

Mike C
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Online kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 21 January 2021 22:04:56(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,151
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: ccbyrne Go to Quoted Post


Very helpful, thank you! In regards to "electric power", is that why you see some locos with 4 pantographs?



See the 39866 in the new items brochure. It explains and illustrates it quite well, especially with the photo looking straight down on it.
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Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 22 January 2021 09:56:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,202
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
See the 39866 in the new items brochure. It explains and illustrates it quite well, especially with the photo looking straight down on it.
That's an example of a loco with four different pantographs.
The original 39890 would require three different types (the two inner pantographs are the same type) while the later 39896 would only have two different types of pantographs.
There even are different setups with four different pantographs, depending on the countries where locos are supposed to operate.

Roco has used finely detailed pantographs for years now. Piko has improved their pantographs and now finally Märklin also do it.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#20 Posted : 22 January 2021 10:23:53(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 14,202
Location: DE-NW
A picture I already posted in a different thread:
UserPostedImage
That loco can operate in many countries: D, A, I, CH, NL, B, ...

The thread is about Märklin locos that operate in Italy, so it has some relevance for the question discussed here:
https://www.marklin-user...&m=567816#post567816
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Joop V  
#21 Posted : 30 March 2021 10:41:31(UTC)
Joop V

Netherlands   
Joined: 21/03/2021(UTC)
Posts: 14
Location: Noord Holland
From SWR Eisenbahn Romantik
Following link takes you to Youtube , showing in German ,the TEEM , Trans Europe Express Merchandise,
starting in Greece , all the way to Sweden.






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Offline PJMärklin  
#22 Posted : 30 March 2021 12:14:47(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,938
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Joop V Go to Quoted Post
From SWR Eisenbahn Romantik
Following link takes you to Youtube , showing in German ,the TEEM , Trans Europe Express Merchandise,
starting in Greece , all the way to Sweden.


Hello Joop,

Thank you for your post.
I thoroughly enjoyed the video .

Regards,

PJ
Online kiwiAlan  
#23 Posted : 30 March 2021 13:10:04(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 6,151
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Joop V Go to Quoted Post
From SWR Eisenbahn Romantik
Following link takes you to Youtube , showing in German ,the TEEM , Trans Europe Express Merchandise,
starting in Greece , all the way to Sweden.


well, that was a pleasant half hour ... ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp
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