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Offline morsing  
#1 Posted : 01 September 2020 09:21:28(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 554
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

Hi,

As my track is finally down, I started playing with RocRail again. I have a Roco 69065 which isn't quite a DMU but it is a fixed train with two decoders and a pick-up shoe at each end.

When moving from one block to the next, RocRail panics with a ghost train even as the rear slider passes the IN of the previous block after the front slider has passed the ENTER of the next block.

I don't know if it is because I need to define it as a M.U?

So started looking at define trains and M.Us. What's the correct way to define this? A train with a M.U. locomotive? A train with a single locomotive? Or just a M.U?

Thanks for any advice.

Regards,
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 01 September 2020 15:03:09(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,072
Location: Paris, France
Hi Henrik
This has to do only with the train length I think.
Rocrail principle with 2-sensor blocks is (e g from Block A to Block B):
- the Train is in bloc A and also shown as destination in block B (yellow)
- the train enters block B (Enter sensor): Block B turns blue, train is still shown in Block A
- When train reaches IN sensor of bloc B, then bloc A is cleared at this stage if the IN sensor of block A is still occupied nothing happens BUT if this IN sensor is intermittent (often the case) then immediately you have a "Ghost" train.
I don't know you train detection principle, the above is with Märklin's detection and the slider plays no role. with current detection it may be different.
ATTENTION
You say you have 2 decoders: depending on their type it may be different:
- if 2 MFX decoders you need to create a traction
- if 2 DCC or MM FX if you assign the same address to the 2 decoders you are fine
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline morsing  
#3 Posted : 01 September 2020 15:20:50(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 554
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

I don't know you train detection principle, the above is with Märklin's detection and the slider plays no role. with current detection it may be different.


Even with a 24994 circuit track?

I have no idea why I am getting a ghost train event then. All other trains are fine.

Regards,
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 01 September 2020 16:02:59(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,328
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

I don't know you train detection principle, the above is with Märklin's detection and the slider plays no role. with current detection it may be different.


Even with a 24994 circuit track?

I have no idea why I am getting a ghost train event then. All other trains are fine.

Regards,
Henrik


I guess rocrail is expecting only one slider per train.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 01 September 2020 16:11:18(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,072
Location: Paris, France
No of course not. With 24994 slider detection track, the slider plays a big role.
I don't know haw many sensors per bloc you use.
If you only use one, then the first slider must pass over the 24994 ENTER2IN of bloc B AFTER the rear slider has cleared the bloc A ENTR2IN sensor
- why aren't you using the Märklin axle detection? It works much better. Train security is much higher and multiple slider trains don't create problems.
Also with 24994 you may have a slider take-off (power cut)
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline morsing  
#6 Posted : 01 September 2020 16:25:44(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 554
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
No of course not. With 24994 slider detection track, the slider plays a big role.
I don't know haw many sensors per bloc you use.
If you only use one, then the first slider must pass over the 24994 ENTER2IN of bloc B AFTER the rear slider has cleared the bloc A ENTR2IN sensor
- why aren't you using the Märklin axle detection? It works much better. Train security is much higher and multiple slider trains don't create problems.
Also with 24994 you may have a slider take-off (power cut)
Cheers
Jean


Surely with axle detection it's even worse? It will definitely still detect the train in the last block using that method.

These are mainline pass-through blocks, they have one ENTER and one IN detector.

Thanks
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 01 September 2020 16:33:06(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,072
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Surely with axle detection it's even worse? It will definitely still detect the train in the last block using that method.

No it really does work better BUT the previous block has to be cleared entirely (both contacts by both sliders or all axles- before arriving (IN sensor) at the next bloc
Jean

My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline morsing  
#8 Posted : 01 September 2020 16:41:47(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 554
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post
Surely with axle detection it's even worse? It will definitely still detect the train in the last block using that method.

No it really does work better BUT the previous block has to be cleared entirely (both contacts by both sliders or all axles- before arriving (IN sensor) at the next bloc
Jean



Ok, but I simply don't have that kind of space. It's doesn't really answer my RocRail question anyway.

Thanks
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline JohnjeanB  
#9 Posted : 01 September 2020 16:50:27(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,072
Location: Paris, France
Ok Henrik
You ask questions but you always know better
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline morsing  
#10 Posted : 01 September 2020 17:01:11(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 554
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Ok Henrik
You ask questions but you always know better
Jean


If I knew better, I would be able to get this to work.

Telling me I need to change my detection method and double the size of my layout doesn't mean I know better when I say I don't have the space.

If you don't know how to define this in RocRail, you don't have to answer.

Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#11 Posted : 03 September 2020 23:38:52(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 160
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Originally Posted by: morsing Go to Quoted Post

When moving from one block to the next, RocRail panics with a ghost train even as the rear slider passes the IN of the previous block after the front slider has passed the ENTER of the next block.

As long as the train has not reached the IN sensor of the second block, it should not matter if the IN sensor of the first block is fired repeatedly.

Are you using default settings for the relevant blocks and sensors? Do you get the same behaviour with other trains that have several current pick-up shoes?
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Martti Mäntylä
Offline morsing  
#12 Posted : 04 September 2020 11:12:39(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 554
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post

As long as the train has not reached the IN sensor of the second block, it should not matter if the IN sensor of the first block is fired repeatedly.


Hi, thanks for your input.

Yes, that would also be my expectation. I just tried running the train over a different set of block that it is long enough to bridge, and although I could see the leaving IN sensor fire after the next ENTER, I did not get a ghost event.

Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post

Are you using default settings for the relevant blocks and sensors? Do you get the same behaviour with other trains that have several current pick-up shoes?



I will try to compare the two different sets of block and sensors and see. I don't currently have any working multi-pickup trains to test with.

Regards,
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
Offline morsing  
#13 Posted : 04 September 2020 14:08:07(UTC)
morsing

United Kingdom   
Joined: 16/08/2014(UTC)
Posts: 554
Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire

Thanks for your help. I had used the automatic router and despite the second block having two sensors, the router had set the first sensor up as "enter2in" and ignored the second.

Shows you should always check anything done automatically. It all runs fine now.

Regards,
Henrik
-----
Modelling west Denmark era IV - possibly with some out-of-place elements!
Marklin C-track + CS3+
12m2 layout to be controlled by RocRail
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by morsing
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