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Offline dominator  
#1 Posted : 26 March 2020 05:16:01(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Kerikeri
This Loco runs very erraticallyGlare . No matter what the speed set, it runs slow then leaps ahead then runs slower again then leaps ahead again then back to slower. In case it wast dirty track, I set up a n oval of C track to do the test again. still the same. Everything is free and the motor ;looks very clean [ ALTHOUGH AT THIS STAGE, HAVE NOT TAKEN THE MOTOR APART TO INVESTIGATE FURTHER ]. Brushes are practically new.

The other problem is the sound is very weakGlare . Decoder is less than a year old. I have reset the volume to maximum and still weak. If I run carriages behind the loco there is now way I can then hear any sound. It has the small cube type speaker. the speaker is not able to be mounted solidly in the frame as there is no room.

Hopefully someone has some suggestionsCrying .

Looks like I have plenty of time to sort this out as we are legally required to stay at home for the next month because of this Covid 19 virus threatBored ..

Dereck

ps These two problems have be evident for some time. I ran the engine in reverse and it does not serge at all. Sound still working but very weak.

Its a 37074 with a drum style commutatorFlapper

Edited by user 26 March 2020 20:05:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline pederbc  
#2 Posted : 26 March 2020 10:31:42(UTC)
pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
Hi,

First of all, what make is it? Type of motor?

In the manual there is a table of different motors and respective settings. If the motor type is not in the table you can try to do the automatic setting by writing ”0” in CV 54 and then press F1. The lok will run quickly about a meter and then stop. During this the decoder will find out the best settings. This has worked for me a couple of times.

Peder
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Offline pederbc  
#3 Posted : 26 March 2020 10:36:47(UTC)
pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 83
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
About the sound:

Did you get a speaker with the decoder?

Make sure it’s a 4-8 ohm and not an old ESU speaker that are of the 100 ohm type. Also make sure the speaker sits in a ”box”. Those are normally delivered with the speaker.

Peder
Offline river6109  
#4 Posted : 26 March 2020 12:11:21(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,028
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Your cube decoder should give you a clear sound, the Sound decoders or lokopilots V 5.0 do give me a headache as well, ESU apparently has improved the driving characteristics in the V 5.0 decoders but I find its getting more and more complex and difficult to program them., the parameters for motors seem to be also somewhat peculiar. I can't remember which loco it was but by setting it to Trix motor fixed the driving characteristics, I'm still having problems in the braking section, whereas the loco just keeps on moving forwards in the most slow movement.
Whether or not they added all these different parameters to program your decoder for different digital systems but I find it unnecessary.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline dominator  
#5 Posted : 26 March 2020 20:13:05(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Kerikeri
Peder. The speaker was provided attached to the decoder by the supplier. I fitted it in a box with an extra extension, but then removed the box end thinking it was reducing the mount of sound coming out. Should I refit that enclosed box end?

John, Yes the bloody thing is very hard to program. Had quite a bit of trouble getting it to self log into my MS2, and when I went to test it yesterday, it would not register properly with the newer MS2 which has been running everything well as a slave to the older MS2. Had to use the master MS2 to test.

You have both given me some ideas so I will have a play.

I noted there was a mark on the silver "diaphram" on the speaker when I got it.

Incidentally, how do you determine which is +ve and which is -ve on these speakers.
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Offline river6109  
#6 Posted : 26 March 2020 23:18:52(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,028
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Peder. The speaker was provided attached to the decoder by the supplier. I fitted it in a box with an extra extension, but then removed the box end thinking it was reducing the mount of sound coming out. Should I refit that enclosed box end?

John, Yes the bloody thing is very hard to program. Had quite a bit of trouble getting it to self log into my MS2, and when I went to test it yesterday, it would not register properly with the newer MS2 which has been running everything well as a slave to the older MS2. Had to use the master MS2 to test.

You have both given me some ideas so I will have a play.

I noted there was a mark on the silver "diaphram" on the speaker when I got it.

Incidentally, how do you determine which is +ve and which is -ve on these speakers.


it doesn't matter which wire you connect to either - or +

what type of mark are you talking about ?

definitely you should fit the box end, hence you're not getting the proper sound.

ESU has released an update for the Loksound V 5.0 and others (a few bugs corrected) but I wouldn't have a clue if this will fix your or my problem until one test it.

I hope this answers all your queries

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline applor  
#7 Posted : 27 March 2020 01:50:51(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I also have the 37074 and converted mine with a Loksound 3.5 years ago. I modified the boiler to fit 2x13mm speakers. Runs great.

As for your problem, I assume it had been driving OK after the conversion and is just running poorly now?

If it has always run poorly then I would expect it to be your decoders motor settings. There are presets for DCM motors but sometimes these are not always right for each individual motor.
Easiest thing to first try is the automated tuning method - set CV54 to 0 and press F1.

If it has only just started driving poorly, check the running gear. I had a BR50 running poorly turned out one of the metal connecting rods was slightly bent and catching, causing it to jerk in a consistent manner.

As for sound as John mentioned you need to have the box fitted. Without it there is no sound chamber, therefore limited pressure resulting in bad sound.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 27 March 2020 07:52:44(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,071
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post

As for sound as John mentioned you need to have the box fitted. Without it there is no sound chamber, therefore limited pressure resulting in bad sound.


Agreed about fitting the speaker box. Not only that but to get the best sound it needs to be sealed around the speaker.

The running characteristic sounds like the motor CVs have values not suited to the DCM motor. Try the autocalibrate procedure in the ESU manual (done by setting one of the Cvs to 0,then setting a function on). Make sure you have a reasonable length of track available before doing this as the loco takes off at top speed then slows to a stop. You will need something like 2m of track.

Offline dominator  
#9 Posted : 28 March 2020 04:56:36(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Kerikeri
I refitted the speaker box. Now it is sounding well. I had not set the sound in the decoder high enough. Yesterday I set it to full loudness and today with the sound box in place it sounds good. not sure why but I had possibly read somewhere that I should not set the sound at full volume.

Is it possible to download a copy of the manual. i didn't get one with the decoder. Setting CV 's with and MS2 has always been a mission.

I thought the LOco ran ok when the decoder was fitted, then a while later I noticed it ran erratically in forward direction. If I ran it at full speed for a while, it seemed to come right. Just recently, it stayed running erratically. I had thought it must have been a mechanical problem, but have not been able to find it so far. I am usually ok with fixing mechanical problems as that is my background. I will go and have another look.

John, the older 100 ohm speakers I remember some had + and - on them.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline dominator  
#10 Posted : 28 March 2020 05:41:37(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Kerikeri
Another look. Then I saw it. [ it had been a Carpet Bahn loco ] More wool was discovered on one side where the drive rod connected the centre wheel. I remember cleaning this out when I first got it but obviously not well enough. This time I removed the nut and 2 bolts. Reconnected and tested again. Not sure its much better but now i suspect that's the way it ran when I first got it, so maybe the motor needs more tuning. Still runs well backwards.
Thanks everyone for all your help so far.
I have a sneaky suspicion that we did not get it running perfectly in the forward direction but cant be sure. It seemed to come right with use!!!!!!!

Not sure I need to buy a lok-programmer yet as I only have 2 locos with ESU decoders. A pity it doesn't seem to be able to be set up using the MS2's I have.

Dereck
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User is suspended until 03/02/2294 13:42:09(UTC) zofman  
#11 Posted : 28 March 2020 08:37:42(UTC)
zofman


Joined: 05/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 26
Location: Diemen the Netherlands
Here you can find the manual
http://www.esu.eu/en/dow...anuals/digital-decoders/

Greetings,
Jan
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Offline dominator  
#12 Posted : 28 March 2020 21:43:31(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Kerikeri
Many thanks Jan. i'll sure have plenty of time to study it now.

All the best to you all. Hope you get out of this COVID 19 dilemma without too many scratches.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 28 March 2020 23:51:04(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,028
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Well here we are, wool in the cogwheels,may be there is more in it it wouldn't take much, I would advice to take another look and make sure there is nothing left in it.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline dominator  
#14 Posted : 29 March 2020 06:20:37(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Kerikeri
Hi John. Cog wheels were all clean and free. I decided to take the motor apart to check in case wool had got in there. Clean so put is back together and found a problem. It would not start without a nudge in either direction, and the jerkiness was evident in reverse now as well.Cursing Took the motor apart again and noticed carbon like deposits.Glare The brush housing was quite dirty. I hadn't thought of checking that the first time,Blushing but because it was fiddly little shit to get back together,Cursing Cursing I must have disturbed the carbon.Confused This time the brushes fell out before I got it together then I found I could not get them in with the motor assembled because of the way the 2 resistors had been soldered to the motor.Mad Off with the brush holder again and spent some frustrating minutes getting those 2 brushes back in the holders. Finally assembles and the engine runs perfectly in both directions.BigGrin

Now just have to study how to synchronize the chuffs and I will be chuffed.Laugh

Have fun.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline applor  
#15 Posted : 29 March 2020 09:21:11(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post

Now just have to study how to synchronize the chuffs and I will be chuffed.Laugh
Dereck


It's a standard 2 cylinder locomotive so be sure to sync with 4 chuffs per wheel rotation.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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Offline dominator  
#16 Posted : 30 March 2020 05:22:10(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Kerikeri
Has anyone manged to synchronize chuffing to wheel rotation with a MS2. I seem to be going around in circles again. To the extent now where I seem to have most of the sounds but chuffing has disappeared apart from an initial chuff or two. I appears you cant see cv values. I set the ODO to 57 thinking that might be the Cv. I get 6 chuffs per wheel rev on speed step one then the speed accelerates like the corona virus compared to the the chuffing. [ yeh I know, shouldn't joke like that ] Instructions for operating the MS2 leave a lot to be desired.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline river6109  
#17 Posted : 30 March 2020 12:41:37(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 13,028
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Hi John. Cog wheels were all clean and free. I decided to take the motor apart to check in case wool had got in there. Clean so put is back together and found a problem. It would not start without a nudge in either direction, and the jerkiness was evident in reverse now as well.Cursing Took the motor apart again and noticed carbon like deposits.Glare The brush housing was quite dirty. I hadn't thought of checking that the first time,Blushing but because it was fiddly little shit to get back together,Cursing Cursing I must have disturbed the carbon.Confused This time the brushes fell out before I got it together then I found I could not get them in with the motor assembled because of the way the 2 resistors had been soldered to the motor.Mad Off with the brush holder again and spent some frustrating minutes getting those 2 brushes back in the holders. Finally assembles and the engine runs perfectly in both directions.BigGrin

Now just have to study how to synchronize the chuffs and I will be chuffed.Laugh

Have fun.

Dereck[/quote

Who ever had this loco before or after: stop over oiling it, it ruins the carbon brushes and the end result is what you got.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline dominator  
#18 Posted : 31 March 2020 02:09:33(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Kerikeri
A lot of us are guilty of over-oiling in the past. We learned through this site, not to do it any more.

All going well now. I only have appox 2 chuffs per wheel rev, but what the heck. Sounds good.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline applor  
#19 Posted : 31 March 2020 06:19:59(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
A lot of us are guilty of over-oiling in the past. We learned through this site, not to do it any more.

All going well now. I only have appox 2 chuffs per wheel rev, but what the heck. Sounds good.


The correct method is in the manual linked earlier. Page 89.

It is easy to get accurate chuffs at slower speed but usually at high speed (greater than 40%) there is no way to accurately sync the wheels (without using external sensor) as the values would fall in between CV values.

13.3. Synchronising the steam chuff
To synchronise the steam chuff with the wheel revolutions, you
may use an external cam as described in chapter 6.11. However,
most users prefer not do such massive changes on their valuable
locomotives and prefer to use the automatic exhaust mode of the
LokSound 5 decoder. Because of the excellent Back-EMF function,
the synchronisation will be satisfying most users.
To enable this function (and disable any external cam at the same
time), CV 57 and CV 58 are used. All you need is a stop-watch
and a little time. It pays to spend some time in order to achive an
optimal result. Please make sure that the load control is perfectly
adjusted to your loco and set the maximum / mimimum speed
according to your wishes. After doing so, you should start to synchronise the steam chuff.
In CV 57, the distance between two steam chuffs at the lowest
possible speed (at speed step 1) is defined. The unit of CV 57
is a multiple of 32 ms (Milliseconds). In CV 58, you need to give
the LokSound V.40 some information about the gearing of your
engine.
Please proceed as follows:
1. Put the engine onto the track and drive it with speed step 1
and switch the sound on.
2. Using the stop-watch, measure the time in seconds it takes the
driver to complete one turn at this speed.
3. Divide the time by 4 (assuming you are using a 2 cylinder or
4-cylinder locomotive)
4. Enter a rounded value without decimal point in CV 57. We
recommend to use POM to be able to observe the result immediately.
5. Observe the locomotive thoroughly and check if there are now
produced too many steam chuffs per revolution. If needed, adjust the value of CV 57 gradually by increasing or decreasing
the value one by one.
6. If you are satisfied, increase the speed of your locomotive to
speed step 4 (of 28).
7. Try to observe, if still four steam chuffs per revolution can be
heard. If you find that there are too many steam chuffs, increase the value of CV 58 (defaults to 43). If they are too slow,
decrease the value of CV 58. This procedure will oaken the
gear factor of the LokSound decoder.

13.3.1. Minimum distance of steam chuffs
Quite small driving wheel diameters are likely to make the steam
chuffs sound very good at small and medium speeds; however
during high speed it sounds strangely distorted and ticked off. This
has often to do with an excessive terminal speed that isn´t prototypical at all. The minimum distance, which two steam chuffs need
to have, can be set with the help of CV 249 to reach a satisfactory
sound. A unit of 1 ms allows a quite exact adjustment.
If you are still not satisfied with the sound during high speed, you
should increase CV 249 gradually while the sound is switched on,
until the sound gets more natural since the steam chuffs are set
further apart.
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
Offline dominator  
#20 Posted : 31 March 2020 10:55:12(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 817
Location: Kerikeri
Hi Eric. I have printed that section off but no real success with the MS2. Do you have a MS2 yourself. I think it can be done on the CS2 but not sure. It doesn't appear that the MS2 can select CV values, or more likely I don't Know what I am doing.

Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline applor  
#21 Posted : 02 April 2020 01:16:54(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,470
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Hi Eric. I have printed that section off but no real success with the MS2. Do you have a MS2 yourself. I think it can be done on the CS2 but not sure. It doesn't appear that the MS2 can select CV values, or more likely I don't Know what I am doing.

Dereck


Hi Dereck,

I do have a MS2 but also have a CS2 and Lokprogrammer. I obviously program with Lokprogrammer but also often change CV's with the CS2.
I have not tried with a MS2 but I believe it can change CV's - I suggest doing a search and reading through some other threads such as this:

https://www.marklin-user...53---Reg-1-and-75-change
modelling 1954 Germany (era IIIa)
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