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S88 DC Questions with LGB - What is the optimum distance for block when using the s88 DC feedback module with LGB
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Offline ReelfootJim  
#1 Posted : 24 February 2020 01:54:11(UTC)
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ReelfootJim

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Joined: 21/12/2019(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: Missouri, Saint Louis
I’m using a CS3+ with an S88 DC (60882) Feedback Module on my LGB Layout. I finally go it working, but determined some of my test blocks were too big for the module to detect contact with in some of the blocks. Does anyone know the optimal or maximum distance between blocks when using the S88 Feedback module?
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#2 Posted : 24 February 2020 04:43:44(UTC)
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DaleSchultz

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Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
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Don't know the exact answer but perhaps it is related to the gauge wire you are using. If you run a bigger wire does it work?
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
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Offline clapcott  
#3 Posted : 24 February 2020 07:04:32(UTC)
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clapcott

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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: ReelfootJim Go to Quoted Post
I’m using a CS3+ with an S88 DC (60882) Feedback Module on my LGB Layout. I finally go it working, but determined some of my test blocks were too big for the module to detect contact with in some of the blocks. Does anyone know the optimal or maximum distance between blocks when using the S88 Feedback module?


On face value this does not quiet make sense.

While you may loose power you can't really loose current.
i.e. if you are supplying enough current for the locomotive in the block to run, then you will be providing enough for the 60882 to detect.

If, however, it is a case of always on - As indirectly perceived by a train entering the block NOT being detected via an Off to On transition because the sensor never went "off" before hand, then this might me due to some crossover between circuits or an induced current .

Also, are you using boosters?
Peter
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Offline PeFu  
#4 Posted : 24 February 2020 08:16:12(UTC)
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PeFu

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Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,209
Originally Posted by: ReelfootJim Go to Quoted Post
I’m using a CS3+ with an S88 DC (60882) Feedback Module on my LGB Layout. I finally go it working, but determined some of my test blocks were too big for the module to detect contact with in some of the blocks. Does anyone know the optimal or maximum distance between blocks when using the S88 Feedback module?

A general rule is that each block should be as long as your longest train. There are software packages that can manage trains that are longer than the blocks in exceptional cases, but this is not ideal. Also, the more blocks you have, the smoother traffic.

Example: If your line is 10 meters, and your longest train 3 meters, you could divide the line into 3 blocks. This could derive each block maybe to be 3 meters having 0,5 meters in between. Each block should have one feedback section at each end, for reporting to the 60882. Depending on the direction, the first section could initiate ”brake” and the second section ”Stop”. You could also have a third feedback section between the 1st and 2nd, but this is IMHO not needed.

But you could also choose to have fewer blocks on this line, if traffic is less heavy.

Cool
Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline ReelfootJim  
#5 Posted : 24 February 2020 12:28:57(UTC)
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ReelfootJim

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Joined: 21/12/2019(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: Missouri, Saint Louis
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Don't know the exact answer but perhaps it is related to the gauge wire you are using. If you run a bigger wire does it work?


I’m using the LGB Orange/White wire 20 guage that is normally used for switch contact. I can try a heavier guage wire to see if that helps. Thanks
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by ReelfootJim
Offline ReelfootJim  
#6 Posted : 24 February 2020 12:33:15(UTC)
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ReelfootJim

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Joined: 21/12/2019(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: Missouri, Saint Louis
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ReelfootJim Go to Quoted Post
I’m using a CS3+ with an S88 DC (60882) Feedback Module on my LGB Layout. I finally go it working, but determined some of my test blocks were too big for the module to detect contact with in some of the blocks. Does anyone know the optimal or maximum distance between blocks when using the S88 Feedback module?


On face value this does not quiet make sense.

While you may loose power you can't really loose current.
i.e. if you are supplying enough current for the locomotive in the block to run, then you will be providing enough for the 60882 to detect.

If, however, it is a case of always on - As indirectly perceived by a train entering the block NOT being detected via an Off to On transition because the sensor never went "off" before hand, then this might me due to some crossover between circuits or an induced current .

Also, are you using boosters?


Not using any boosters, just the CS3+.
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Offline ReelfootJim  
#7 Posted : 24 February 2020 12:41:29(UTC)
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ReelfootJim

United States   
Joined: 21/12/2019(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: Missouri, Saint Louis
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ReelfootJim Go to Quoted Post
I’m using a CS3+ with an S88 DC (60882) Feedback Module on my LGB Layout. I finally go it working, but determined some of my test blocks were too big for the module to detect contact with in some of the blocks. Does anyone know the optimal or maximum distance between blocks when using the S88 Feedback module?

A general rule is that each block should be as long as your longest train. There are software packages that can manage trains that are longer than the blocks in exceptional cases, but this is not ideal. Also, the more blocks you have, the smoother traffic.

Example: If your line is 10 meters, and your longest train 3 meters, you could divide the line into 3 blocks. This could derive each block maybe to be 3 meters having 0,5 meters in between. Each block should have one feedback section at each end, for reporting to the 60882. Depending on the direction, the first section could initiate ”brake” and the second section ”Stop”. You could also have a third feedback section between the 1st and 2nd, but this is IMHO not needed.

But you could also choose to have fewer blocks on this line, if traffic is less heavy.

Cool


Thank you, this is very helpful. I was just setting up the entire block as a feedback section to monitor the trains position as a learn how to use the feedback module. Could this be my issue? That the feed back section needs to be shorter and not the entire block?
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Offline PeFu  
#8 Posted : 24 February 2020 14:14:59(UTC)
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PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,209
Originally Posted by: ReelfootJim Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ReelfootJim Go to Quoted Post
I’m using a CS3+ with an S88 DC (60882) Feedback Module on my LGB Layout. I finally go it working, but determined some of my test blocks were too big for the module to detect contact with in some of the blocks. Does anyone know the optimal or maximum distance between blocks when using the S88 Feedback module?

A general rule is that each block should be as long as your longest train. There are software packages that can manage trains that are longer than the blocks in exceptional cases, but this is not ideal. Also, the more blocks you have, the smoother traffic.

Example: If your line is 10 meters, and your longest train 3 meters, you could divide the line into 3 blocks. This could derive each block maybe to be 3 meters having 0,5 meters in between. Each block should have one feedback section at each end, for reporting to the 60882. Depending on the direction, the first section could initiate ”brake” and the second section ”Stop”. You could also have a third feedback section between the 1st and 2nd, but this is IMHO not needed.

But you could also choose to have fewer blocks on this line, if traffic is less heavy.

Cool


Thank you, this is very helpful. I was just setting up the entire block as a feedback section to monitor the trains position as a learn how to use the feedback module. Could this be my issue? That the feed back section needs to be shorter and not the entire block?



Well, as you are using a ”power consumption” method, the dimension of the wire is more important than what’s needed in the ”contact track” method on 3 rail layouts. But if the train is moving, there sure is enough power for the S88 to report feedback. How do you connect the 60882 to the CS3?

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
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Offline ReelfootJim  
#9 Posted : 24 February 2020 20:07:05(UTC)
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ReelfootJim

United States   
Joined: 21/12/2019(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: Missouri, Saint Louis
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ReelfootJim Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PeFu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ReelfootJim Go to Quoted Post
I’m using a CS3+ with an S88 DC (60882) Feedback Module on my LGB Layout. I finally go it working, but determined some of my test blocks were too big for the module to detect contact with in some of the blocks. Does anyone know the optimal or maximum distance between blocks when using the S88 Feedback module?

A general rule is that each block should be as long as your longest train. There are software packages that can manage trains that are longer than the blocks in exceptional cases, but this is not ideal. Also, the more blocks you have, the smoother traffic.

Example: If your line is 10 meters, and your longest train 3 meters, you could divide the line into 3 blocks. This could derive each block maybe to be 3 meters having 0,5 meters in between. Each block should have one feedback section at each end, for reporting to the 60882. Depending on the direction, the first section could initiate ”brake” and the second section ”Stop”. You could also have a third feedback section between the 1st and 2nd, but this is IMHO not needed.

But you could also choose to have fewer blocks on this line, if traffic is less heavy.

Cool


Thank you, this is very helpful. I was just setting up the entire block as a feedback section to monitor the trains position as a learn how to use the feedback module. Could this be my issue? That the feed back section needs to be shorter and not the entire block?



Well, as you are using a ”power consumption” method, the dimension of the wire is more important than what’s needed in the ”contact track” method on 3 rail layouts. But if the train is moving, there sure is enough power for the S88 to report feedback. How do you connect the 60882 to the CS3?



I have the CS3+, so it connects to the S88 Bus on the underside via an Ethernet cable. If I had the standard CS3, it would require a Link S88 Module with a power supply to operate. It basically works for two rail in a similar fashion as the 3 rail versions, where you isolate the ground rail between sections you want to detect.
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Offline clapcott  
#10 Posted : 26 February 2020 10:46:59(UTC)
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clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: ReelfootJim Go to Quoted Post
It basically works for two rail in a similar fashion as the 3 rail versions, where you isolate the ground rail between sections you want to detect.


Ahhh ...
No I do not think that is a good analogy

If you isolated a rail in a 2 Rail system your trains would not move.

The 60882 is placed "in" the circuit and detects current from the main power to the track.
What you are doing is segmenting the block/circuits.

The manual could be better, by showing the connection or the main power to the track.
The examples given show connection of the "T" to the track rail which is, IMHO, misleading.
This is only universally valid if the SAME track rail is connected to the return (0 = Brown = black) of the Controller output and the matching (B = Red) is connected to the other rail.
Peter
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