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Offline mike c  
#1 Posted : 17 February 2020 21:25:45(UTC)
mike c

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Bombardier today announced that it has sold it's railway division, based in Berlin to Alstom (France). This means that Alstom and Siemens will be the primary railway supply companies in Europe, with Stadler and others occupying lesser roles.

Over the past few years, Bombardier, formerly ADtranz, BBC and related companies, has experienced a number of problems with delivery delays, functionality that have put the train manufacturer in a precarious position, which as a result of problems with Bombardier's aeronautics division, led to the decision to part with the transportation division.

China's CRRC, which has benefitted from the acquisition of HST technology by the Chinese Railways, has over a few years time, poised itself to make an entry into the European market and this has increased the pressure on European companies to mount an effort to rival this new competitor or face losses in the stock market.

This means that existing series like the 185, 186, 146, etc will now be Alstom products. It will be interesting to see what decisions will be made and whether we will still see the Traxx family or whether the future will see more of a focus on international versions of the Prima class locomotives.

Alstom is probably best known for it's involvement in the TGV (SNCF), ICN (SBB) and the EVO (NTV Italy).

Regards

Mike C
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#2 Posted : 17 February 2020 22:11:12(UTC)
kimballthurlow

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The British Government have been in talks with the Chinese Rail Corporation (and with others) relating to possible involvement in building the HS2.
This is a huge £100Bn project to connect London to the north with new lines and equipment.

Bombardier has plants In India.
I wonder if they have been included in these ongoing sale negotiations?

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail (USA and Australia) - 3 rail (English Hornby Dublo) - a few old O gauge.
Offline Minok  
#3 Posted : 17 February 2020 22:35:19(UTC)
Minok

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Yeah, BBC (the Swiss/German electrical engineering firm) that built the power components of prior decades of electric locomotives and trains, which became ABB in the late 1980s (swiss/swedish) then I think in the 1990's sold its transportation division to Bombardier. (the rest of BBC which became ABB stayed with ABB as part of ABBs 1990's restructuring). I can only speak to this company, as I worked there briefly as an intern in the 1988,89 timeframe as a computer engineer student at the site that became Bombardier Transportation (in Mannheim) and have family that worked there in electrical engineering capacity. Alstrom is probably a good fit.

Bombardiers commercial aerospace efforts are also in trouble with its C series jet, which we here at Boeing follow with interest.



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Offline TEEWolf  
#4 Posted : 18 February 2020 00:55:10(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, BBC (the Swiss/German electrical engineering firm) that built the power components of prior decades of electric locomotives and trains, which became ABB in the late 1980s (swiss/swedish) then I think in the 1990's sold its transportation division to Bombardier. (the rest of BBC which became ABB stayed with ABB as part of ABBs 1990's restructuring). I can only speak to this company, as I worked there briefly as an intern in the 1988,89 timeframe as a computer engineer student at the site that became Bombardier Transportation (in Mannheim) and have family that worked there in electrical engineering capacity. Alstrom is probably a good fit.

Bombardiers commercial aerospace efforts are also in trouble with its C series jet, which we here at Boeing follow with interest.





Haha just read, Bombardier sold the rest of its prior CSeries (now Airbus A 220) part to Airbus and the Canadian State. Now the railway. What will be left at Bombardier?

But gives the hope locomotives will getting better. The DB AG has really serious problems with delays as well as faulties during operations.
Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 18 February 2020 02:37:31(UTC)
mike c

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Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Bombardiers commercial aerospace efforts are also in trouble with its C series jet, which we here at Boeing follow with interest.


Some of us have noted how happy Boeing was to lobby the US Government to impose tariffs on the Bombardier planes while Boeing enjoys lavish tax breaks and benefits accorded to them by the US Congress, claiming that Canadian government help to Bombardier amounts to unfair competitive practices.

In a fair and honest economy, Boeing would have to declare all of those pork benefits hidden in Senate legislation as government aid as well.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Thewolf  
#6 Posted : 18 February 2020 16:22:11(UTC)
Thewolf

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Bombardier will remain the one and only division whose expertise is recognized: business aircraft.

And that's good enough. They tried, they tried and... they failed. The billion 300 million invested in their company is ...our money !

Enough is enough !!!

Thewolf

Edited by user 19 February 2020 01:27:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 19 February 2020 01:07:56(UTC)
mike c

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Bombardier was world renowned for it's Ski-Doos and Sea-Doos, which they sold to BRP (Bombardier Recreational Products). The second product that Bombardier developed and did well in was the second version of the Montreal Metro cars, which were based on technology developed by Canadian Vickers using license from the RATP (Paris) MR-59 cars. From there, they expanded into delivering subway cars for other cities and eventually expanding into railway cars too. The first major rail project was Canada's LRC (Light, Rapid and Comfortable) for VIA Rail. Amtrak also participated in the project, but declined to purchase any train sets in the end. The Bombardier LRC coaches ended up being towed behind GM and other locomotives and they never attained their potential.
The third product that Bombardier did well with was the aviation division, made up of the former Canadair company, based in Montreal and known globally for it's forest fire "water bombers", which could scoop water from lakes and dump it on wildfires. Canadair was also involved in other aviation products (Challenger and the RJ/CRJ line) and at one point was manufacturing buses for Montreal's STCUM.
At the same time, in Europe, the Swiss companies BBC, Oerlikon and SLM were having a hard time competing with companies from the EU countries and the value of the Swiss franc made this even harder. The taxes and duties on Swiss goods exported to the EU made it too expensive for many other countries to buy Swiss designs and models. The Re 460/465 was exported to Norway and Finland, but they could not break into the German, French or Italian markets. They opted for a merger with Swedish ASEA and the company became known as ABB (Asea Brown Boveri). That merger did not achieve any major breakthroughs and the rail division was merged with Daimler Benz' rail division, which at that time incorporated Henschel (Kassel) and , which renamed the new division ADTranz (ABB Daimler Transportation). With the merger of Daimler-Benz with US Chrysler, the company became known as DaimlerChryslerRailSystems, but Chrysler sought to divest itself of the European Rail Division, so ADTranz was sold in 2001 to Canadian Bombardier.
Bombardier attempted to pursue the operations of the European division, while building it's North American operation. That was made more complicated by requirements by some US operators that the equipment had to be built in the USA, leading the company to build new production and assembly facilities in New York State, meaning that the La Pocatiere, Quebec main plant was at times idle due to lack of orders. The company was able to deliver products from the NY plant for New York's MTA, Amtrak (Acela and HHP-8 in a joint venture with Alsthom/Alstom). They also developed locomotive series for New Jersey (NJ) Transit based on the DB Class 101 (ALP 46) and 146 (ALP-45).
A further order from Amtrak did not come, due to problems with the HHP-8 and Amtrak went with rival Siemens for the new ACS-64 (based on the Siemens Eurosprinter series).
Bombardier ran into production and delivery issues with new subway cars for Montreal, New York and other cities, as well as with the Twindexx Double Deck trains for the Swiss SBB, which left an impact on the bottom line.
I will continue this post later with more details of the aviation division and the final decline which led to this week's denouement. Check back here tomorrow.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Thewolf  
#8 Posted : 19 February 2020 19:42:14(UTC)
Thewolf

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Hi MikeCool

Excellent overview of Bombardier's achievements.

There are things Bombardier has achieved that I had forgotten.

Everyone has their own opinion of Bombardier.

I'm not an expert in aviation and train affairs, but as a retired public accountant, I understand very well that what prevented Bombardier from achieving its objectives was the lack of cash flow, which would not have been a problem if Bombardier had had a division ...'' weapons '' like Boeing and Airbus have.

The CS series was a wonderful dream...at an astronomical and insane price...that could have ended up... if an ''arms'' division to provide cash flow and reduce the risk of insane debt would have existed. I'm sure of it.

As a Quebecker, I can only thank the management of Bombardier, which did not want to put at risk the $1.3 billion contribution from the Caisse de dépôt et de placement du Québec. We must not forget that this is our nest egg when it comes to our pensions in Quebec, and we must also remember the terrible loss that this Caisse suffered a few years ago because of a blunder by its former boss.

As far as the transportation division is concerned, we have to recognize that the notion of "railroads" in North America is less in people's minds than it is in Europe, and that it is partly impossible to have a rail line that is as condensed here at home as it is in Europe...although a certain vision of expanding this means of transportation is beginning to take shape. Personally, I am in favour of the railways.

So I look forward to the rest of the Bombardier story...

To Mike now

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Edited by moderator 22 February 2020 21:44:22(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 19 February 2020 22:24:51(UTC)
Minok

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Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post

At the same time, in Europe, the Swiss companies BBC, Oerlikon and SLM were having a hard time competing with companies from the EU countries and the value of the Swiss franc made this even harder. The taxes and duties on Swiss goods exported to the EU made it too expensive for many other countries to buy Swiss designs and models. The Re 460/465 was exported to Norway and Finland, but they could not break into the German, French or Italian markets. They opted for a merger with Swedish ASEA and the company became known as ABB (Asea Brown Boveri). That merger did not achieve any major breakthroughs and the rail division was merged with Daimler Benz' rail division, which at that time incorporated Henschel (Kassel) and , which renamed the new division ADTranz (ABB Daimler Transportation).



Having direct personal experience with this small aspect of things, I want to clarify this.

BBC (Brown Boveri & Cie), the Swiss electrical engineering company, had German industrial scale operations for many decades. BBC had German subsidiaries starting in the 1920s. The major German subsidiary was based in Mannheim Germany, where at times in the 1980's accounted for a rather substantial part of BBC's revenue. That Mannheim subsidiary was the principle in so many German electric locomotives that have the BBC markings on them from the 60's, 70's, 80's and through the ICE (v1). The 1988 merger between Swiss BBC and Swedish ASEA, which created ABB and resulted in the German subsidiary in Mannheim changing from BBC to ABB was not an attempt to break into the German market.. that market already existed for decades via its German subsidiary. I've got family that worked at BBC in Mannheim since the early 1970's, and I worked there just post merger in 1988/89, where I got to experience some battery powered VW Golf cars driving around town silently as they tested various battery chemistries and drive electronics. The Swiss division of BBC is just a different division from the German division of BBC, but they were part of the same top level company (with different corporate entities operating the divisions). If you look at the variety of electric containing locomotives in Germany from the 60's onward you will find BBC on the side of them for the power plant contribution from the BBC Germany division in Mannheim.

That the Swiss home company of BBC could not sell the "Re 460/465" in Germany, while the German subsidiary of BCC had been decades long participating in German produce electric locomotives with others may be partly due to the economics of an entirely BBC built train (I don't know the details of the Re 460/465), but such subsidiaries existed in other Swiss industrial settings as well. Swiss SIG partnered with German Sauer to operate the Sig Sauer firearms business to produce small arms for sale around the world for what are effectively political reasons on many aspects.


As ABB then reorganized multiple times, doing as corporation do, by coreing up research (from Mannheim to a shiney new big research center in Heidelberg down the road in the early 1990s).. to finally realizing that was a bad path and downsizing and divesting of a lot of things (where the research center in Heidelberg was closed and some research moved to the nearby small town of Ladenburg, and the selling off of the Mannheim based transportation components that found their way to Bombardier eventually.
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Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 20 February 2020 04:12:25(UTC)
mike c

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Location: Montreal, QC
Continuation of Post 7 and response to Minok's post (above):

Thanks for the information regarding BBC's operations in Germany.
I did not get into the company's role in German locomotive production prior to the merger with Daimler-Benz, because I was focusing on what led to the establishment of Bombardier's principal facilities in Kassel. Prior to the merger, that facility belonged to ABB Henschel, which had been acquired in 1990. Prior to that, BBC had contributed to the electrical components of a number of designs for the Deutsche Bundesbahn, including locomotives of the 110 family, the 103, the 120. In many cases, BBC provided electrical components for some locomotives in the production, often as a subcontractor for the manufacturing company, so it was normal to find locomotives in the same series that had either BBC, Siemens or AEG labels (electronics) and Henschel, Thyssen-Krupp-Thyssen or Krauss Maffei (mechanical). Henschel merged with Thyssen in 1976. Thyssen-Henschel became ABB Henschel in 1990 and later became the core of ADTranz when ABB and Daimler merged their Transportation (Rail) Divisions in 1996. Daimler sold ADTranz to Bombardier in 2001 after a merger with US Automaker Chrysler.
So many companies had rail divisions that were merged with other companies, but the mother companies remained independent or merged with others that it becomes confusing at some point.
In Switzerland, BBC had acquired Maschinen Fabrik Oerlikon (MFO) in 1970 and ADTranz acquired Schindler Waggon (Schlieren) in 1997 and Schweizerische Lokomotiv- und Maschinenfabrik (SLM) in 1998, effectively becoming Switzerland's only locomotive manufacturer. Within a few years, most of those facilities were shut down, leaving only the Bombardier facility in Villeneuve and the former offices in Zurich.
Elements of the former SLM in Winterthur, which were not taken over by ADtranz, were renamed Sulzer-Winpro and then Winpro AG. That company was sold to Stadler in 2005 and now serves as engineering for that company, who has revived Swiss Rail Manufacturing with the Flirt, Kiss and other trainsets now used by SBB, SOB, BLS and other Swiss and international rail operators (normal gauge and narrow gauge).
In North America, in the early 1970s, Bombardier won the contract to manufacture the (then) next generation cars for Montreal's Metro (subway). Around the same time, Bombardier acquired the Montreal Locomotive Works (MLW), and with it, the Light Rapid Comfortable (LRC) project.
In the late 1980s, Bombardier entered the European rail market with the acquisition of a minority interest in Brugeoise-Nivelles (BN) a Belgian locomotive manufacturer and ANF in France.
In the early 1990s, these companies became the core of Bombardier Eurorail, which further grew with the acquisition of Waggonfabrik Talbot (Aachen) and DWA (Deutsche Waggonbau), which was made up of the former DR facilities in Goerlitz, Bautzen and Hennigsdorf (formerly Borsig).
The 1996 ABB merger with Daimler-Benz Transportation and the subsequent cession (1999) of ABB's share to Daimler-Chrysler and the sale 2 years later to Bombardier all happened in quick succession. The combination of Daimler's facilities with ABB's and Bombardier's made this new company a serious rival to Siemens for supremacy in Germany, Europe and the world.
Bombardier maintained production of a series of models derived from the BR 145, but discontinued the BR 101, the Re 460 and other locomotives with higher maximum speeds. The new products were marketed under the Traxx label.
During the period 2001 to 2010, the Traxx locomotives seemed to be on a path to take over Europe's rails (either sold to rail companies or leased via Bombardier's Lokpool subsidiary). Siemens Eurosprinter faced a setback after the DB chose the ADTranz 101 as their prime runner and it was only after the OBB (Austria) decided that it's new workhorses would be based on the Eurosprinter design, that that company started making major moves to rival Bombardier. From the Eurosprinter came the OBB 1016, 1116, 1216, then the DB 182 (ES64U class) and finally the Vectron. The earlier BR 152 was only picked up by the DB and Cargo success only came with the launch of the 4 system BR 189 (ES64F4) which sees use in multiple countries, largely through leases by Siemens' Dispolok.
Interestingly, both Lokpool and Dispolok were eventually sold to Mitsui (MRCE). Other investment companies jumped into this rail lease game, including Railpool, Babcock & Brown, etc and these lease/rental loks became common in almost every country.

Back to Bombardier, the company's troubles, which as I already said, were largely caused by protectionist policies in the USA, led to an increase in costs of the C-Series. Additional pressure caused by the decline in value of the Canadian dollar, put it's C-Series commercial jet project in jeopardy and increased the debt of the company. At first, Bombardier tried to fund the project by selling the successful CRJ/RJ project to Mitsubishi Industries. That left the C-Series and the Private Jet (Lear) divisions at Bombardier, with Ireland based Short Brothers being sold to Spirit Aero Systems.
As the debts and intricacies involving the C-Series mounting, the only solution was to hand the project to Airbus, who could hopefully do an end run around new tariffs imposed by the American government by producing the planes at Airbus' facilities in Alabama. This meant that the planes meant for Air Canada and Swiss/Lufthansa could be made in Canada, but those aimed at the US and some other markets could only come from the US plant.
The corporate (private jet) Lear division is now the last entity of Bombardier.

Bombardier Transportation remained a profitable operation and one of the more successful in the company. The sale to Alstom will have some interesting things to monitor over the new few years, including the future of locomotive classes. Will Alstom keep the Traxx family or will it try to merge or replace this line with it's 37000 (Prima) models and their descendants.
Certainly the Avelia (TGV, ETR610, Liberty and AGV) will continue in the trainset market. It remains to be seen how the company will structure it's locomotive division, especially as in Europe, the focus continues to be trainsets for passenger traffic and locomotives primarily for cargo operation.

I probably left out a lot and a lot of my information about BBC, MFO, SLM, etc came from my father, who had contacts at all those companies. I am less informed about BBC's German operations, other than what I might have seen or read in various BBC Magazines over the years. I did follow things more actively after local company Bombardier took over those companies.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Thewolf  
#11 Posted : 20 February 2020 16:07:06(UTC)
Thewolf

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It is unfortunate that in these explanations no mention was made of the contribution of $1.3 billion by the Caisse de dépôt du Québec. Without our taxes, Bombardier would have gone under long ago.

Finally, the numerous incidents that occurred to the various C-Series aircraft sold to several airlines were also one of the reasons for the failure of the project, in particular the sagging of the landing gear on landing


Thewolf

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Edited by moderator 22 February 2020 21:43:59(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline TEEWolf  
#12 Posted : 20 February 2020 21:26:17(UTC)
TEEWolf


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Very nice all this historic and political developments overview.

But reading in April 2019 the German DB AG stopped the taking over of products from Bombardier (locos and coaches) because of quality failures. In July 2019 was readable in papers the DB AG is again taking over products from Bombardier. Then in January 2020 again you read the DB AG stopped taking over products from the Bombardier group, because of quality failures. I think these quality failures tells more than all history and political influences the demise of the Bombardier group.
Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 21 February 2020 02:14:11(UTC)
Minok

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Well quality problemS are a quite common Problem is such large industrial product deliveries where the volume of units delivered isn’t very large. Each unit has a lot of specialized hand work in the assembly so variances can conspire and errors happen more often. Siemens is having issues with the ICE4. Airbus cannot seem to deliver reliable A400M aircraft for some reason and Boeing is having issues with delivering planes free from work debris. Ford - I’ll just not say more. It happens in all industries. If that was a huge reason for failure then most large industrial companies would cease to exist.
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Offline mike c  
#14 Posted : 21 February 2020 05:18:15(UTC)
mike c

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Posts: 6,621
Location: Montreal, QC
I think that we live in an era where increasing profit and dividend/stock price is king, so many companies are rushed to deliver goods to meet financial deadlines and this results in a lot of rushing to get things done. It used to be that a company lived and died on it's products and not on it's profitability/stock price or dividends.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#15 Posted : 21 February 2020 05:39:25(UTC)
mike c

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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
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Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Very nice all this historic and political developments overview.

But reading in April 2019 the German DB AG stopped the taking over of products from Bombardier (locos and coaches) because of quality failures. In July 2019 was readable in papers the DB AG is again taking over products from Bombardier. Then in January 2020 again you read the DB AG stopped taking over products from the Bombardier group, because of quality failures. I think these quality failures tells more than all history and political influences the demise of the Bombardier group.


Bombardier Transportation (Rail) was performing well, albeit there were some issues with some models. It was one of the divisions of Bombardier, along with the ex-"Lear Jet" Private jet division that was profitable. They needed to sell this division to pay off debt accrued by other divisions, including money still owed for the development of the C-Series, which had been given to Airbus.

We have seen occasions where product was deemed not to meet the operator's requirements. This has resulted in problems, but most of them eventually get resolved or the manufacturer pays a penalty.

Bombardier currently has problems with the SBB RABe 502 which the SBB has described as "unacceptable"
DBAG FV (Fernverkehr) has suspended delivery of the IC2 trainsets pending resolution of some ongoing issues, including software and suspension.
Both of these projects are part of the Twindexx project, albeit one being a trainset and the other being a locomotive pulled coach consist.

I had noted over the past few years that new locomotive procurement had seen a shift towards Siemens product and away from Bombardier, as the 189 and 193 Vectron seemed to be the choice of many railroads and operators and newer Bombardier (186/187) had seen a slower distribution than I had expected.
For example, since 2018, SBB's new acquisitions have been Vectrons and BLS also went with that model rather than buying Bombardier 486/487s outright.
In Germany, Bombardier has done well with Regional (146, etc), but Cargo has ordered more Vectrons than Bombardier product.

Switzerland was particularly of interest because the SBB had soured on Siemens following the experience of the RABe 514 and the Re 474 (189). The satisfaction of the company with leased ES64F4 (189) restored that reputation and led the SBB to consider and select the new Vectron (193) for new tractive power over the Traxx series. In fact, SBB is trying to sell it's Re 482s to German operators as it prefers the new Siemens models.

Regards

Mike C
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