Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Norton1972  
#1 Posted : 16 February 2020 18:26:20(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
Apparently this is not possible. The DC system is 2 rail, although I don't understand what the purpose of the shoe on the bottom of the locomotive that is on most Maerklin Locos is for.

I have the 3 rail analog track. And my loco for DC will not run on it.

I have you tubed this and get no simple clarity on how to change the track over.

And the Maerklin user manual for the loco is terrible. Also it doesn't even think about running the train on the 3 rail track.

I put the new locomotive on the track and the MS2 immediately recognized it. But it won't make it run.

I'm beginning to think my earlier questions were not clear enough to get a usefull, hands on type, of answer to this.

Do I really have to change my track out to run DC?

Thanks,
Steve
Offline Jimmy Thompson  
#2 Posted : 16 February 2020 18:36:10(UTC)
Jimmy Thompson

United States   
Joined: 26/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 196
Location: Florida Classic but Successful Swampland City
The M-track is metal and the 2 outside rails are the "ground" and the center slider/shoe and rail/nubs are for the power. The problem being that the rails and metal bed are connected and can not be disconnected (C-track has a plastic bed, so a certain amount of fiddling can make it into "2-rail" because the 2 outside rails are essentially isolated from each other [unlike the M]), sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings. Normal 2-rail has power on one rail and ground on the other rail.

What I am mildly confuesed about is the manual (perhaps it is for Märklin-HAMO which was their 2-rail version of locomotives for other makers layouts??).
Jimmy T
Analogue; M-track; Inglenook; KLVM; Gauguin+Van Gogh
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Jimmy Thompson
Offline cintrans  
#3 Posted : 16 February 2020 19:30:09(UTC)
cintrans

Aruba   
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 27
Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
Apparently this is not possible. The DC system is 2 rail, although I don't understand what the purpose of the shoe on the bottom of the locomotive that is on most Maerklin Locos is for.

I have the 3 rail analog track. And my loco for DC will not run on it.

I have you tubed this and get no simple clarity on how to change the track over.

And the Maerklin user manual for the loco is terrible. Also it doesn't even think about running the train on the 3 rail track.

I put the new locomotive on the track and the MS2 immediately recognized it. But it won't make it run.

I'm beginning to think my earlier questions were not clear enough to get a usefull, hands on type, of answer to this.

Do I really have to change my track out to run DC?

Thanks,
Steve


Hi Steve

As Jimmy already said, it is not possible to convert M-rails for 2 rail DC.
The shoe on the bottom of Marklin locos is to pick up the + (or better said the "return") of the current.
What loco do you have? With or without the shoe?
If the MS2 recognized the loco, it should work, at least the communication with the loco is there....

Jean-Pierre
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by cintrans
Offline Norton1972  
#4 Posted : 16 February 2020 21:32:12(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
Well I have some really nice locos for sale - shoot - I guess I asked this question several different ways and kept getting the right answer for how I was asking the question. Even when I bought the new BR80 from Reynoulds this past week I asked if it would run on Maerklin track and they said yes. I'll talk to them this week about returning it. That's $330 I could have saved.

Thanks -

Be well,
Steve
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Norton1972
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#5 Posted : 16 February 2020 23:41:34(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 132
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post

I put the new locomotive on the track and the MS2 immediately recognized it. But it won't make it run.

If your MS2 recognised the loco, then it should be able to run it as well, just like Jean-Pierre said. Moreover, the loco cannot be a 2-rail DC version - if it were, MS2 would not see it at all. What was the model no. of the loco? What precisely happens when you put it on the tracks?

There's been some kind of confusion about "DC" in your posts all along. Now that you have a MS2 and regular Märklin 3-rail tracks, you are fully set up for digital operation ("DCC"). You don't need 2-rail DC, nor should you want it.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Martti Mäntylä
Offline David Dewar  
#6 Posted : 16 February 2020 23:46:34(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,871
Location: Scotland
If the loco is recognised by the MS2 and has a slider then it will run on M track I presume. Must be something wrong with the power supply or perhaps the loco decoder. Do other locos run OK. Also confused that if you have M Track how would you not know what the slider is for.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by David Dewar
Offline cintrans  
#7 Posted : 17 February 2020 00:07:55(UTC)
cintrans

Aruba   
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 27
Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
Well I have some really nice locos for sale - shoot - I guess I asked this question several different ways and kept getting the right answer for how I was asking the question. Even when I bought the new BR80 from Reynoulds this past week I asked if it would run on Maerklin track and they said yes. I'll talk to them this week about returning it. That's $330 I could have saved.

Thanks -

Be well,
Steve


Steve

You have to give us a bit more info to figure out whats wrong...

Did you buy the Marklin #37043 (BR80) from Reynoulds?
I did read in a previous post that your track is from the '60, by any chance are those the M-rails that have effectively a 3e rail in the middle? "3e rail" means also the "newer" M-rails or C-rails that have the "pins" in the middle....
The outer rails are one conductor, the one in the middle (rail or pins) the other conductor to bring power and digital info to the loko.
"2 rail" has nothing in the middle of the rails and uses only the left and right rail to get power and digital info to the loko.

If your MS2 "sees" the loko, it means there is a closed circuit and digital info is flowing....

Jean-Pierre
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by cintrans
Offline mike c  
#8 Posted : 17 February 2020 02:19:10(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,552
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
Apparently this is not possible. The DC system is 2 rail, although I don't understand what the purpose of the shoe on the bottom of the locomotive that is on most Maerklin Locos is for.

I have the 3 rail analog track. And my loco for DC will not run on it.

I have you tubed this and get no simple clarity on how to change the track over.

And the Maerklin user manual for the loco is terrible. Also it doesn't even think about running the train on the 3 rail track.

I put the new locomotive on the track and the MS2 immediately recognized it. But it won't make it run.

I'm beginning to think my earlier questions were not clear enough to get a usefull, hands on type, of answer to this.

Do I really have to change my track out to run DC?

Thanks,
Steve


Steve,

first thing, please post a photo of the model you bought.
Is there a make and model number? Is it a Maerklin model.

Does the locomotive have a slider on the underside? If so, it is probably designed for the Maerklin 3 rail system.

If the MS2 recognized it, it likely is equipped with the Maerklin slider.

You said you have 3 rail analog, but the MS2 is 3 rail digital.
Are you running analog or digital? Is the MS2 hooked up to the layout or do you have a classic blue (analog transformer)?
Do you have other locomotives or is this your first?

There is a Maerklin dealer in Portland, OR, but I imagine that is about a 6 hour drive. I. know that feeling. The closest dealer to Montreal is either Toronto or New York.

The more information that you can provide, the better response we can give you.

Regards

Mike C



Offline mike c  
#9 Posted : 17 February 2020 02:35:34(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,552
Location: Montreal, QC
OK, so I went through your previous posts and I have figured out that you bought some kind of Maerklin set and were looking for a locomotive to run on it.
You also discussed the Mobile Station (MS) and Central Station (CS) and I assume you bought a MS2.

That means that you have entered the digital world and are no longer running analog.

It still works using the 3 rails, with the digital + being sent through the center rail studs and the - being sent through the rails (both of them).

So, here is what I need to know. What locomotives do you have? Just that one or do you have others?
You can use digital loks (locomotives) on an analog setup, but cannot use analog loks on a digital setup (as they will run at top speed).

Do you want to run using the MS2 or using an analog transformer?

If using the MS2 with older (M track), you need to connect the brown wire to the brown wire of a feeder track and the red one to the red one.
The MS2 should then work with the older track. You will have to ensure that you are not using a feeder track with an interference suppressor.

Once the MS has recognized the lok, it should add that model to the ten that you can directly access from the controls.
You can then activate functions and move the lok using the dial.

Please provide more details so that I can provide a more precise reply.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Norton1972  
#10 Posted : 17 February 2020 03:49:16(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
OK - bear with me. I have gone through the requests and taken your questions and requests out and copied them into this response. After your questions and such I typed in my answers. Hopefully I got them all - if not please don't hesitate to ask for more info. I haven't figured out how to post pictures so verbal and links will have to do.

My original transformer is a blue one #6627 A 16VA and the numbers on the track are 51061/1 - Tin ballast looking pieces with the two metal straight rails on the outside of it with the center rail being pins that the slider runs on. That is the power to the particular locos that I have been running in Analog.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
If your MS2 recognised the loco, then it should be able to run it as well, just like Jean-Pierre said. Moreover, the loco cannot be a 2-rail DC version - if it were, MS2 would not see it at all. What was the model no. of the loco? What precisely happens when you put it on the tracks?


The model # of the Loco is #37068 (BR80) - and when placed on the tracks it does nothing. Here is a link to it (url)https://www.reynaulds.com/products/Marklin/37068.aspx(/url)

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
I did read in a previous post that your track is from the '60, by any chance are those the M-rails that have effectively a 3e rail in the middle? "3e rail" means also the "newer" M-rails or C-rails that have the "pins" in the middle....


Yes - it has the pins on the middle.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
If your MS2 "sees" the loko, it means there is a closed circuit and digital info is flowing....


On the MS2 screen it shows that the MS2 is sending information but since the Loco isn't responding to anything I think the communication is one way. Or the loco is defective? The screen also shows that the Loco is in "Stop" of some type. When I depress the stop button on the MS2 the "Stop" notice disappears for a short time and then reappears. I have also noticed that the wheels are locked up solid. I can't turn them by hand. My other analog lokos I can turn by hand as I have done that to lube them.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
It still works using the 3 rails, with the digital + being sent through the center rail studs and the - being sent through the rails (both of them).


Yes that is my assumption and visual look.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
If using the MS2 with older (M track), you need to connect the brown wire to the brown wire of a feeder track and the red one to the red one.
The MS2 should then work with the older track. You will have to ensure that you are not using a feeder track with an interference suppressor.


I hooked the MS2 up exactly like that. Brown to brown and red to red. Today I placed the wiring back like I had it on the Analog transformer and my original loks run perfectly. They are #3316 series #25, a TM 800 (old one), and a DB 89 006. I also have a 003160-9 lokomotive that I purchased with the set I bought from the couple who had begun the setup and were downsizing.

I would love to have the digital loks work on this - if I can with what I have.

Thanks all - I'm not unknown to electrical but the digital world has evaded me. At 74 I'd rather do other things than try to sort it out. So I am relying on all of your expertise. So far it's been great and gratefully accepted.

And yes - Portland is 12 hours west of me.

Be well,
Steve

Edited by moderator 22 February 2020 01:09:42(UTC)  | Reason: Added Quote tags to clarify the post

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Norton1972
Offline TEEWolf  
#11 Posted : 17 February 2020 05:41:33(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,321
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
Or the loco is defective? The screen also shows that the Loco is in "Stop" of some type. When I depress the stop button on the MS2 the "Stop" notice disappears for a short time and then reappears. I have also noticed that the wheels are locked up solid. I can't turn them by hand. My other analog lokos I can turn by hand as I have done that to lube them.


Your loco is not defective. When you release the STOP button at your MS 2 and the stop returns after a short while, than you have a shortage somewhere in your layout. You must find where. I think that you are still mixing up a anlogue current connection with the digital connection. Get rid of all your analogue stuff and restart only with your digital devices.

Download this brochure

https://static.maerklin....57ac95a9a31493730041.pdf

and have a look inside for basic informations about Märklin digital. The advantage is, it is in English too. Also it explains a lot of MRR terms.

Do not know if you got a few C-tracks already. M-track and C-tracks are no porblem, because Maerklin offers special adapter tracks to use both type of tracks.

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/24951/

If you read the brochure and you have questions connecting your MS 2 via the track box to M tracks, comeback here for explanations, please.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf
Offline Norton1972  
#12 Posted : 17 February 2020 05:56:15(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
I tried eliminating anything other than one track for power. It still didn't work. Would taking an ohm meter around to each track identify where the short might be?

Thanks,
Steve
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Norton1972
Offline phils2um  
#13 Posted : 17 February 2020 08:17:29(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Hi Steve,

This may be a silly question. Is your 6627 transformer COMPLETELY removed and disconnected from the track when you are trying to use the MS2? You CANNOT use both at the same time! If you tried using both at the same time, I suspect you destroyed the power output stage of the MS2.

If the track works OK with the 6627 it should be fine for the MS2. But you must remove any noise suppressors (capacitors) that are still on your feeder tracks as already mentioned by Mike C. The noise suppressor caps are connected across the leads on the bottom of the feeder track section. If you have a spare M track feeder section turn it over and you will see the capacitor that needs to be removed. If you have multiple feeder tracks you must remove the noise suppressors from all of them - not just the one you use to connect the MS2. Removing these will not affect analog running with your 6627 transformer at all. They are only there to reduce RFI (radio frequency interference). REMEMBER TO DISCONNECT THE MS2 COMPLETLY BEFORE HOOKING UP THE 6627 AGAIN OR THE MS2 WILL BE DESTROYED!
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by phils2um
Offline mike c  
#14 Posted : 17 February 2020 17:10:36(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,552
Location: Montreal, QC
Steve,

take 3 or 4 straight track sections including the feeder track. Connect it to your 6627 (only). Does your new lok respond in analog mode?
then disconnect the 6627 and replace it with the MS2 and power supply. Does it now respond to the digital commands of the MS2?
If it does not respond to the MS2, try setting the MS2 to MM (Maerklin-Motorola) only (no DCC) and try accessing it using address '80'

If it works, then there is probably some kind of short somewhere else on the layout.
If it does not work, then the problem might be with the locomotive you bought.

Regards

Mike C
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mike c
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 17 February 2020 17:38:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,655
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
The screen also shows that the Loco is in "Stop" of some type.
It's the MS2, not the loco. The MS2 goes into STOP mode and turns the track voltage off.
If this happens every few seconds then there is something wrong - maybe power consumption too high.
Make sure you only use feeder tracks without capacitor (radio interference suppressor) when using the MS2.

The MS2 should show the loco name "80 014 Museum". A different loco name could indicate that you are not using the correct loco entry on the MS2.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline hxmiesa  
#16 Posted : 17 February 2020 17:42:37(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,865
Location: Spain
Also, connect the MS2 to a single trackpiece WITHOUT any loco, and see if it still says STOP?!
(Or just power up the MS2 without anything at all connected to it. If it still shows STOP, then it must be damaged...)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by hxmiesa
H0
Offline baggio  
#17 Posted : 17 February 2020 17:59:49(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,673
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
Also, connect the MS2 to a single trackpiece WITHOUT any loco, and see if it still says STOP?!
(Or just power up the MS2 without anything at all connected to it. If it still shows STOP, then it must be damaged...)


When I turn on my MS2's (gray and black), the screen says "STOP". I push a button and the light disappears. At the point I can control whatever train I have on the layout.

Offline TEEWolf  
#18 Posted : 17 February 2020 18:06:48(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,321
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
I tried eliminating anything other than one track for power. It still didn't work. Would taking an ohm meter around to each track identify where the short might be?

Thanks,
Steve


Have you had he chance for a look into the Maerklin brochure?

https://static.maerklin....57ac95a9a31493730041.pdf

Page 4 shows how to connect a layout with digital current. Connect the track box to the layout. B = Bahnstrom = red cable has to be connected to the Pukos in the middle of the track. Brown is the ground or mass and has to be connected to one of the two bars or at a M-track to the body of a track. Into the track box you plug in the MS 2 (be careful with the 10 pins inside the jack. I bent them once and had to exchange the whole cable). Then you plug into the track box the power supply and then you connect the power supply (cable down to the bottom) with your regular power net. So it ist shown in this brochure.

All other power and/or control devices have to be disconnected to your layout. And please think about the M-track current feeder piece, where this suppression is underneath inside, as others have written here in their posts before. Take this piece away too. You can built your own feeder track. Just connect the red and brown cable to a piece of M-track as mentioned before. Perhaps you have to solder the red and brown cable to the track piece, because it does not have these little connectors underneath as a C-track got.
Offline TEEWolf  
#19 Posted : 17 February 2020 18:11:44(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,321
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
When I turn on my MS2's (gray and black), the screen says "STOP". I push a button and the light disappears. At the point I can control whatever train I have on the layout.


This is correct. But Norton wrote, only a short while later the red STOP sign returns. At my MS 2 and/or CS 3+ it happens always too, if I have an electrical short anywhere on the layout.

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf
Offline Norton1972  
#20 Posted : 17 February 2020 18:18:49(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
The MS2 should show the loco name "80 014 Museum". A different loco name could indicate that you are not using the correct loco entry on the MS2.

Hmmm - it may not show this one - I will recheck it.

TEEwolf - I have not had a chance to look at the brochure. I'm downloading and printing it as we speak - - Thank you for the link!

I only have one track feeder with the RFS - the others are just a straight hookup. I did disconnect that particular track feeder. I don't think I have done anything that would ruin the MS2 but will test it with a single track just to make sure.

Thanks all - off on a mission to check these things out - -

Be well,
Steve
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Norton1972
Offline TEEWolf  
#21 Posted : 17 February 2020 21:03:18(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,321
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
The MS2 should show the loco name "80 014 Museum". A different loco name could indicate that you are not using the correct loco entry on the MS2.

Hmmm - it may not show this one - I will recheck it.

Be well,
Steve


It is correct, the MS 2 shows the loco's name. But firat after it has registered. As long as it is registering you see a bar blinking with the word mfx, where this bar is building from the left to the right side. But to this stage you do not come, because your MS 2 shuts off before. Also the name of the loco is not shown yet in the display. You only get this all after a correct registration of the loco. First get to the step the MS 2 is accepting your release of the stop button.
Offline Norton1972  
#22 Posted : 17 February 2020 22:26:37(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
I deleted the loco and then let the MS2 go through its piece and it registered it with the 80 014 Museum and voila!!! It runs and does what it is supposed to do!! And it is totally separate from the analog unit that powers the switches and lights. My only downside is that it doesn't have a smoker. But my new big engine will have one so that's good enough. I love the sound effects.

If I were to run an analog loko on this track I would have forward, reverse and speed control? And how would I register the analog unit? I'm not sure it is of any benefit as I couldn't stop it and then run the new lokos.

Excellent! You folks are just the best!!

Be well,
Steve
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Norton1972
Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 17 February 2020 22:27:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,655
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
But to this stage you do not come, because your MS 2 shuts off before. Also the name of the loco is not shown yet in the display.
Well, maybe. In the first post we read "I put the new locomotive on the track and the MS2 immediately recognized it."
I asked for the loco name to find out what this sentence actually means.
Maybe the loco had time to register between the stops, maybe not.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 17 February 2020 22:29:36(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,655
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
If I were to run an analog loko on this track I would have forward, reverse and speed control?
With analogue locos you can press STOP to stop all locos. Press STOP again to let the analogue loco run full speed again. Changing the direction or the speed is not possible.

Some DCC controllers allow running a single analogue DC loco, but this does not work with AC locos or with multi-protocol controllers like the MS2.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Norton1972  
#25 Posted : 17 February 2020 22:45:37(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
Tom,

When I first put the new loko on the track it came up with a name and I assumed it was the correct name for this little loko. So yes you read correctly - what I didn't know was that the MS2 had to run through a series of things internally to correctly identify this loko.

I'm a fairy quick learner but I do make some pretty horrendous mistakes when I first start out!! And this world of DC has me rethinking a bunch of things. I went through the entire track setup and found on switch that wasn't working correctly so I repaired that and have one switch that needs a bit of tweaking to allow the cars to run more smoothly on.

But I am happy with the track and how it all works together so my original work was how I usually do things. Slowly and carefully.

Thanks again,
Steve
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Norton1972
Offline TEEWolf  
#26 Posted : 18 February 2020 00:07:27(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,321
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
I deleted the loco and then let the MS2 go through its piece and it registered it with the 80 014 Museum and voila!!! It runs and does what it is supposed to do!! And it is totally separate from the analog unit that powers the switches and lights. My only downside is that it doesn't have a smoker. But my new big engine will have one so that's good enough. I love the sound effects.

If I were to run an analog loko on this track I would have forward, reverse and speed control? And how would I register the analog unit? I'm not sure it is of any benefit as I couldn't stop it and then run the new lokos.

Excellent! You folks are just the best!!

Be well,
Steve


There we go!

But a smoker would not be possible, I think. Right underneath the chimney is the decoder installed in. With a smoking pipe inside your loco will get (but only for a short while) a double smoker.Laugh One time out of the chimney and another one from the burnig decoder. For smoking purpose buy another loco, may be with a smoke unit already installed as I did with the Insider BR 65. Or Maerklin says "loco is prepared for build in the smoke unit xyz".

https://www.maerklin.de/...rpdb_pi1%5BnoPaging%5D=1

For the BR 80 museum I am still waiting for delivery.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf
Offline TEEWolf  
#27 Posted : 18 February 2020 00:16:08(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,321
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
But to this stage you do not come, because your MS 2 shuts off before. Also the name of the loco is not shown yet in the display.
Well, maybe. In the first post we read "I put the new locomotive on the track and the MS2 immediately recognized it."
I asked for the loco name to find out what this sentence actually means.
Maybe the loco had time to register between the stops, maybe not.


That is fine. But may be you can explain him the usage of an analogue loco running on a digital layout again. Much more detailed as you did already. You are the much better expert for this as I am. I think we all here mainly forget quite often, real newbies are real newbies. You have to explain everything and very detailed. Even we are thinking it is so normal, we do not have to write about it. But from where a newcomer shall know anything, if we do not have told him before?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by TEEWolf
Offline Norton1972  
#28 Posted : 18 February 2020 01:48:30(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
TEEwolf you are going to love the BR 80 Museum. My only issue with it currently is it does not hook to the other cars securely. It appears that the little piece that comes down on the coupler doesn't come quite far enough. I'll ask Reynoulds about it tomorrow.

And I do understand about newbies. Guilty of overestimating their abilities myself on other forums. So no harm no foul! Part of the deal. And I didn't break anything or burn anything up.

I'm not going to run analog on my setup. I like the DC and will stick with it. My other little lokos will sell easily I think and it will help with the expense of the DC products.
Offline Norton1972  
#29 Posted : 18 February 2020 01:56:46(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
I do have a 3316 series 25 loko and am going to see if I can convert it to DC. I think it is possible and I am sure there are threads in here that will explain it for me. It's in excellent shape and I just got it back from a Marklin dealer for cleaning and tuning. It's only worth about a $100 so I don't think i can hurt it any.

Thanks again compadres!

Steve
Offline baggio  
#30 Posted : 18 February 2020 03:33:14(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,673
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post

I'm not going to run analog on my setup. I like the DC and will stick with it. My other little lokos will sell easily I think and it will help with the expense of the DC products.


Just keep in mind that if your read in an advertisement that a loco is sold as "DC", that normally means it is two-rail analogue and does NOT have a decoder.

Two rail digital locos with a decoder are normally referred to as "DCC" and cost about USD$100. more. These locos CANNOT run on a Marklin layout (without an expensive conversion) because it is three-rail. But it would run on a "TRIX" layout, also made by Marklin, because TRIX is two rail.

I found that analogue "DC" locos can be a lot of fun and sell for less money. Take a look at the "ROCO" line up
https://www.roco.cc/en/home/index.html

or "Walthers" for US/Canada locos:
https://www.walthers.com/

Offline H0  
#31 Posted : 18 February 2020 08:32:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,655
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
But may be you can explain him the usage of an analogue loco running on a digital layout again.
It's not meant to work. Some folks are happy to see the loco running around ("works" if you only have one loco on the layout).
Trial and error can be fun.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#32 Posted : 18 February 2020 21:57:26(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 132
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Hi Steve,

I still sense potential confusion each time "DC" appears in your posts, so please bear with me if I appear to be nagging on this point.

Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
I like the DC and will stick with it. My other little lokos will sell easily I think and it will help with the expense of the DC products.

If you had written "I like the digital mode and will stick with it" I would be unconcerned. That is what you now have with Märklin 3-rail system. As Baggio said above, "DC products" usually refers to locomotives using the 2-rail system such as Trix or Roco. They won't run on your system, so stay away from them.

Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
I do have a 3316 series 25 loko and am going to see if I can convert it to DC.

Here you mean "convert to digital". Having said that, the conversion includes converting the motor of the locomotive to run on direct current (DC), but that is a matter between the decoder and the motor and does not change the overall system. The converted locomotive is still "3-rail digital".
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Martti Mäntylä
Offline phils2um  
#33 Posted : 21 February 2020 09:41:18(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Hi Steve,

I'm glad you got your MS2/loco running. Congratulations on that. It's the biggest step! All the rest is downhill and only money from here! I do want to correct one nomenclature mistake I noticed you keep making in your posts. You continually refer to digital control as DC. The correct acronym is DCC (Digital Command Control). DC is shorthand for direct current which is the other and most common type of analog control power used in the model RR world. It is also commonly referred to as "two rail" or "two rail DC" as opposed to Märklin's "three rail" AC (alternating current) analog control power. As baggio and Martii have said: do not confuse DC with DCC. They are two completely different animals.

Phil S.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by phils2um
Offline H0  
#34 Posted : 21 February 2020 10:57:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,655
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: phils2um Go to Quoted Post
The correct acronym is DCC (Digital Command Control).
This acronym is also confusing because NMRA DCC is one digital protocol. In the three-rail world the dominant protocols are mfx and MM, not NMRA DCC.
So maybe just "digital" is less confusing than "DCC".

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by H0
Offline thing fish  
#35 Posted : 21 February 2020 12:25:16(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: istanbul
Hi Steve,

To calrify; digital refers to electrical signals used for communicating. So, digital protocols are like languages. Digital signals (digital words so to speak) travel within the electric current; doesn't matter which, AC or DC. So, electric current is the medium in which the digital signals travel.

In turn, AC or DC currents use the metal rails on our tracks as its medium of travel. They don't care if the medium has 2 or 3 tracks.

Now, Marklin system is usually referred to as 3 rail: both rails on two sides plus the center rail that consist of studs; center rail in Marklin system is the (+) pole of the current while the other two are (-). Thus, Marklin locos have the current pickup under them and comes with axles that does not have insulation.

On the other hand the 2 rail system use the regular tracks as one side the (+) pole and the other (-). That's why 2 rail locos don't have current pickups; they have insulated axles and they draw the current from the layout by means of their wheels.

Now, in analog, there is no languages spoken between the command post and the locomotive. In analog, the command is the electric current itself. You increase the voltage on the tracks to make the loco run faster, and decrease to make it run slower. So, the voltage on the tracks is variable, volume decided by yourself.

In digital, on the other hand, the voltage on the tracks is constant (equivalent of your maximum speed in analog, usually 18 volts in Marklin system), and have to be there so the digital signals have a medium to travel in. A loco wouldn't move until you tell it to do so. This is done by the commands sent to the loco from your controller (MS2 in your case), and the decoder that interprets the command. In other words, there is the decoder standing between the motor and the electrical current.

In theory and practice, you can have any language (digital protocol) spoken within your 2 or 3 rail layout; MFX, MM, or DCC, both locos and controllers. Think of digital controllers and digital decoders as multilingual people. As long as they speak each others language, you'll have no problems at all.

Ok, which one to choose; 2 rail or 3 rail system?

That's totally dependent on your personal likes. I like Marklin locos, so to be able to use them without modification, I chose 3 rail system. If you like Roco or Trix locos, you can choose 2 rail.

There's also great advantage with 3 rail system while building your layout that is; 2 rail systems are prone to short circuits over crossings and turnouts. So utmost care should be taken when building 2 rail systems.

To recap: there is no such term as DCC or MFX system, or AC or DC system. The correct terminology is 2 rail or 3 rail. You can have any digital protocol on any system (2 rail or 3 rail).

Hope this makes things a bit more clear for you.

C.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by thing fish
Offline Norton1972  
#36 Posted : 21 February 2020 16:28:19(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
Thanks for the clarification. It's digital, which I now have, versus analog, which I used to have. All on the 3 rail track system.

And I had to send my BR80 back as it was intermittent to begin with and then it simply quit running. I emailed with Reynaulds about this and he said the CVs needed to be reset. Something he said I shouldn't do, like I have a clue on how to do that, and so I boxed it up and sent it back to him.

I hope this isn't something that regularly occurs as spending $20 to get a brand new item running doesn't set well with me.

I also have taken issue with the couplers. They do not hold onto the cars. When they are closed there is a .028 gap that let's the cars coupler slide right out. I have figured out a solution but he hasn't answered me on whether that is acceptable or not. If it isn't then he gets to keep the 80 and give me my money back. Kind of a bummer but I learned to be wary of new lokos.

Thanks for all the edification!

Be we,
Steve
Offline thing fish  
#37 Posted : 21 February 2020 18:54:52(UTC)
thing fish

Turkey   
Joined: 25/01/2020(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: istanbul
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
And I had to send my BR80 back as it was intermittent to begin with and then it simply quit running.


Steve hi,

I don't know it is something specific about your Br80, but you must be aware that digital decoders are pretty picky about momentary lapses (milisecond gaps) in the current on the tracks. If you have patches on your layout where there's current conducting issues (reason being that digital signals dependent on the existing current), behaviour like these may happen. This is not something noticable when you run analog locos over the same patches as locos only care about the voltage and not the signals.

Best would be to buy/build a current detecting car.

Cheers,

C.

Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#38 Posted : 21 February 2020 23:47:19(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 132
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
I second what Cem said. You are using oldish M tracks, right? If so, I strongly suspect that some of the rails have a bit of rust or dirt on them that disturbs the digital signals enough so that digital locos stop.

This brings us to the subject of "how to keep my tracks clean". If you search the forum, you will find plenty of discussion about that. My own conclusion is that this is an endless battle between the railroading part of human race and the forces of nature: as long as we conduct our hobby on a planet with free oxygen and dust particles in the air, the fight will go on. I use a soft cloth and isopropyl alcohol to clean my tracks, but if tracks indeed have rust, more coarse methods may bee needed.

Analog locomotives are much more robust in this regard: they need no digital signals, and can simply roll over a short powerless segment because their AC motors won't come to full stop immediately after loss of power unlike the DC motors of digital locos.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
Offline Norton1972  
#39 Posted : 22 February 2020 00:04:35(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
Well where it stops is where my analog lokos would also stop. It's a switch so I may have to find a replacement for that one. I replaced one other switch that the 80 didn't like also. I just received my new loko from Spain and it stopped on the same spot. I'll pull it from the layout and go through it and make sure it is conducting properly.

My new unit came with Loksound and my MS2 is recognizing the Loko properly but the sound is evading me.And the instructions came in German I think. So I am emailing him to find out where I can get english instructions. nice loco but no sound and the smoker is a smaller diameter from the ones I currently have. So DC must take a different unit.
Offline Norton1972  
#40 Posted : 22 February 2020 00:13:19(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
Apparently I misread the article and this loco has no sound. Oh well - it's still a lovely loko and will be fine. I am, however, considering dropping the digital. To make it all work correctly I would spend a bunch of money that would essentially make what I have already built worthless and replace it with a whole new deal. Not interested in doing that. So I will remain conflicted at this time and see where it all goes.

Thanks again for all the assistance! I do love this forum.

Be well,
Steve
Offline baggio  
#41 Posted : 22 February 2020 01:47:10(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,673
Location: Toronto
NOT so fast, Steve.

You CAN run both systems concurrently. I do.

Digital is where you get the sounds. Some of them are very nice, others, so, so. You get them from Marklin digital (or Walthers/Roco digital).
l
The best sounds come from a digital steam loco of yesteryear.

So, keep going with a simple digital layout, like the one you have, with one or two locos, while around it you run the other system, analogue.

Mine is like that: Two rail analogue on the outside (Roco and Walthers mainly) and Marklin digital on the inside.

You can do this NOW, without spending another dollar.

Silvano

Offline phils2um  
#42 Posted : 22 February 2020 07:31:19(UTC)
phils2um

United States   
Joined: 12/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Hi again Steve,

I hope you don't take this as the wrong way. We all started out with no or little knowledge about how digital control works. (and fumbled our way through). I suggest you get a primer or search on the web about digital control. If you study up a bit it will help your understanding and you will probably never want to go back to analog. It's not rocket science or magic. You have an analog system going, digital is not really that different. It's just a matter of learning how it works. The most important thing though is to enjoy your trains whatever you decide! Best wishes.

Phil S.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by phils2um
Offline Norton1972  
#43 Posted : 22 February 2020 21:07:22(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
baggio - I don't have the room to run two systems.

Phil S. - My biggest problem is the switches. They are somehow blocking the current right in the middle. I took one apart this morning and saw where the spring was rubbing against the track - a bit of a short. So I realigned everything and it still doesn't want to let the Loko go past it at slow speeds. Several of the switches are doing this. At regular train speed it glides right on through but going slow it just stops.

I think I have a handle on digital, several reference articles from you good folks, it's that I think in order for it to work as it should I need to replace several of the switches. I'm thinking of simply ordering new ones instead of trying to get these to carry current and not short out. To really do it right I would need to replace the layout's track. Ugh.

Be well,
Steve
Offline Norton1972  
#44 Posted : 25 February 2020 01:02:36(UTC)
Norton1972

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2019(UTC)
Posts: 38
Location: Idaho, Boise
Originally Posted by: thing fish Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Norton1972 Go to Quoted Post
And I had to send my BR80 back as it was intermittent to begin with and then it simply quit running.


Steve hi,

I don't know it is something specific about your Br80, but you must be aware that digital decoders are pretty picky about momentary lapses (milisecond gaps) in the current on the tracks. If you have patches on your layout where there's current conducting issues (reason being that digital signals dependent on the existing current), behaviour like these may happen. This is not something noticable when you run analog locos over the same patches as locos only care about the voltage and not the signals.

Best would be to buy/build a current detecting car.

Cheers,

C.



I finally got all of the track working as it should. On switch was missing the return spring, one needed an adjustment, and one just needed some love. I put 15 cars behind the loko and let it run on super slow around the track and no glitches!! Yay!!!

No room for error on these digital setups for sure. But they tend to be pretty forgiving of newbyitis. I'm sure looking forward to my BR80 and running more than one loko at a time.

I really can't thank you all enough for your patience and willingness to put up with me and my wierd learning curve. I did order a coupler gauge and a set of return springs. I'm now curious about a track cleaning car. I looked at a few and they are a trifle spendy, or at least it seems so, and decided I will wait a bit on that.

Be well,
Steve

thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Norton1972
Offline logieoi  
#45 Posted : 24 March 2020 10:20:16(UTC)
logieoi

Pakistan   
Joined: 24/03/2020(UTC)
Posts: 1
Location: Punjab, Dijkot
I will do this first as properly. I did a few further studying and came to the realization that the 24 draws 70 mA that's better. Also, the Kühn T145 manual says I ought to be looking for a smoke generator that's 16V-21V with small electric smokers reviews and in accordance the specs, the 24 must in shape that completely.
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2020, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.501 seconds.