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Offline DaleSchultz  
#1 Posted : 30 December 2019 04:13:21(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,394
I am wondering if any one has used 12 DC to switch K-Track turnout motors reliably?

Reason I am asking is that I plan on building a bunch of K83- style modules (Using ESP8266) and I have 12 DC available that I could easily use for the switching power.

I know I could (and wil try it) but would like to hear from anyone who has been there and done that and how well it worked over time....

Failing that I could run a 16V AC line I have through a bridge rectifier and use that...

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline PJMärklin  
#2 Posted : 30 December 2019 14:05:46(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,546
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I am wondering if any one has used 12 DC to switch K-Track turnout motors reliably?

Reason I am asking is that I plan on building a bunch of K83- style modules (Using ESP8266) and I have 12 DC available that I could easily use for the switching power.

I know I could (and wil try it) but would like to hear from anyone who has been there and done that and how well it worked over time....

Failing that I could run a 16V AC line I have through a bridge rectifier and use that...




Hello Dale,

Best I can offer is a dull 15V AC (= 16V AC of Märklin accessory line on another dayOhMyGod )

Whilst from my physics (way, way back), power = current x voltage (AC or DC), I subsequently understand that DC is more "efficient" in delivering said power compared with AC, which I understand has higher "line losses" (shuffle-on-the-surface) : I do not know how much higher this "efficiency" is for DC, or if it is even relevant to the proportions we work in Modelleisenbahnen.
(I tremble at this point, in expectation of a scorching critique from the censorious expert ... Per ... Scared Crying )

In addition I gather that solenoids work with both AC and DC power (to wit the power to the solenoids from the k83 - see below)

I "built" a transformer (housing) around an Arlec transformer that had close to the tappings I needed for the various voltages on my original analogue layout around 1983 (the aluminium case in the image below shown on viewer's right in this section of my transformers under my current layout). At that date our domestic power supply was "240"V AC (given the usual fluctuations), but since then is now "230"V AC as in Europe and NZ :


UserPostedImage


In about 1995 I started to build a new (my current) layout in digital and used this transformer for various other non-digital functions (block relays, some signal light relay solenoids, uncouplers and the turntable). I also used the 15V AC for some turnouts I have that are not digitally controlled, they are mostly those in the steam service area (see in the image below, the smaller "remind-me" white indicator cards next to their indicated turnouts); they are controlled by the traditional Märklin press-button units on the viewer's nearly-far right of my control panel) :


UserPostedImage


I do use some 12V AC on my layout provided by a large garden light transformer giving an ample 105 VA! but divided into 3 provider circuits, each limited to 3 amp current, however this is used only for layout lighting and to power signal lights. The 12V seems to give much the same gleam but at reputably extended globe life (yes, old-fashioned Brawa globes), mind you, many of my signals are LED.

The vast majority of my turnouts are digitally controlled and powered by the k83s as controlled by my 6021. Märklin advise that the voltage to the turnout from the k83 is about minus 20V DC (obtained by half-wave rectification and smoothing of the digital voltage in the k83 decoder, but of course applied by digital control for but a fraction of a second compared with manual control) whereas in traditional analogue mode they are powered by 16V AC :


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage


So ... 15V AC, not close to your 12V DC but the turnouts seem to be quite swift and strong in actionSmile. Given the somewhat higher power efficiency of 12V DC vs 12V AC I would hope it will work - I will be most interested to hear your results BigGrin


Regards,

from Hobart at 42 degrees Celsius air temperature today and 42 degrees South latitude !
Confused Laugh ,


PJ
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Offline Purellum  
#3 Posted : 30 December 2019 14:27:51(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,215
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Go to Quoted Post
(I tremble at this point, in expectation of a scorching critique from the censorious expert ... Scared Crying Per ...


Assuming that "Per" is me; can you find anywhere where I haven't tried to help and find the right answer / solution,
if something wrong was written?

I would prefer not to write anything at all; but then half of all information regarding electrical matters found here would be wrong.

I have no hands-on experience with the K-track turnout coils; but I know from what I've read that they can get permanently
magnetized when powered with a DC current.

I general, a given DC voltage gives a stronger "pull" in a coil than the same voltage in AC; since the inductance in the coil
isn't affecting / reducing DC current in the same way as AC current.

Only tests and / or experience can tell if 12 VDC is sufficient to give a proper pull of the turnout actuators.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline hxmiesa  
#4 Posted : 30 December 2019 14:46:10(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,884
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
I have no hands-on experience with the K-track turnout coils; but I know from what I've read that they can get permanently
magnetized when powered with a DC current.

I have heard the same, but it hasn't happened to me after 10-12 years of using 24Vdc.
Probably the iron-core is "soft metal" which avoids that problem.
In any case -should they get magnetized- some pulses with AC will degauss them again, and they should be good for another 10 years, right? ;-)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Purellum  
#5 Posted : 30 December 2019 15:00:53(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,215
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
I have heard the same, but it hasn't happened to me after 10-12 years of using 24Vdc.
Probably the iron-core is "soft metal" which avoids that problem.
In any case -should they get magnetized- some pulses with AC will degauss them again, and they should be good for another 10 years, right? ;-)


Yes BigGrin I think we both have the info from the exhibition-layout in Hadsten, which runs several hours each week Cool

AFAIK they just swap polarity when the problem occurs Glare

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#6 Posted : 30 December 2019 16:34:54(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,394
is anyone aware of what the current draw of the Märklin 7549 turnout motor is?
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Purellum  
#7 Posted : 30 December 2019 18:22:56(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,215
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
is anyone aware of what the current draw of the Märklin 7549 turnout motor is?


It will depend of mechanical resistance, the voltage you use, if it's AC or DC and probably a few things more BigGrin

I found this, apparently an average, written in Märklin Artikel-Nr. 0730, Seite 100.

"Weichenantrieb im Schaltmoment 8,0 VA"

https://forum.miniatur-w...ichenantrieb--t6454.html

I have no idea if it's correct Blink Blink

Per.

Cool



If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#8 Posted : 30 December 2019 21:20:01(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,394
wow good find Per, shockingly high!

I will need to measure that for sure!

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline DaleSchultz  
#9 Posted : 30 December 2019 21:27:35(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,394
with regard to the DC part of this thread, the Märklin digital book states that the K83 output is in fact "pulsing DC" current. I suspect is is half wave rectified but they certainly are not using AC.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
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