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Offline Minok  
#1 Posted : 04 December 2019 01:45:20(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
So I was looking at the differences between seemingly identical ICE4 expansion sets. And I notice, wait a minute, why is my dealers pricing at Lokshop so much higher than what the Märklin website is posting is OVP/MSRP for the 43724?
Märklin lists it a €198.67
Lokshop lists it at €269.99 to customers.

Heh? I went to ask Roland if there is some sort of error in the data I’m seeing.
Seems so. Roland tells me that the Märklin website posted OVP/MSRP prices are apparently the dealer wholesale prices.

Not sure how much of the website listings are tagged with dealer wholesale prices in place of the OVP but don’t get a shock if you look up a recent item you ordered and see it listed there for substantially less than you are paying.

At least we get some view into the pricing range a dealer has to work with.

A9A40954-8106-4363-B13D-39FEB92C8DD4.jpeg

And just as a double check I went to see what MSL listed it as

E70D1648-A7AE-4023-9CF0-E8FD4A31DC1C.jpeg


Dealer wholesale on the main ICE4 set does look nice. Wonder if Märklin is legally obligated to meet the price even though they don’t directly sell these items to consumer ?

7E32F482-4D3C-4575-BFE6-BF4106445804.jpeg
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#2 Posted : 04 December 2019 04:30:20(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
interesting catch! What a balls up!

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Wonder if Märklin is legally obligated to meet the price


no, the U in UVP stands for Unverbindlich = non-binding.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline TEEWolf  
#3 Posted : 04 December 2019 04:47:04(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Indeed, very strange this behaviour of Maerklin. And yes, they can do it. Maerklin is only giving an UVP (= Unverbindliche Preisempfehlung = recommended retail price). Everybody can calculate its own price. A major point is, now you can buy the ICE 4 directly at the Maerklin internet shop for 500 € too!

But the people who have ordered the ICE 4 for 700 € are now really angered. I also ordered the ICE 4 with a discount of 20%. Nevertheless the price is still above the new Maerklin price of 500 €. Yes I am upset too, although I got a lowest price guarantee from the dealer I ordered the train. But one thing is clear now, the brand new Insider TEE RAm model for 2020 is now absolutely overpriced by 900 €. It is 400 € over the ICE 4. Even the TEE is all metal and the ICE 4 not, it is overpriced. And now we Insider have got the risk for a declining price change too. If you order today for 900 €, perhaps in February Maerklin is declining the price to 700 €. Then you have to pay to your dealer 900 € for sure. For myself the result will be, if I will buy the RAm, I order at the last day, the last possibility for ordering by fax to my dealer.

The mistakes Maerklin are doing is getting more and more alarming. Remember only the confusion about the last order date for the new Insider model. The confusion about the new ICE 4 article number in the brand new main catalogue 2019/2020. Last week I received 2 web mails from Maerklin containing one article number in each mail. Every article number was wrong. This weekend I sent a mail to Maerklin. Immediately I got the answer, my mail has been deleted unread. Monday I got an answer from Marklin to this mail. Very confusing.
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Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 04 December 2019 04:55:57(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Yes I get that the UVP is just a non binding price; more a tongue in cheek comment.

If they had an online store and you could put the item in the checkout basket and process to pay for it, then they may well be on the hook for trade law reasons.

I’m sure the pricing we’ll get sorted out quickly as others start calling their dealers asking why the dealer is charging more than Märklin’s recommended prices. ;)

It does provide us some interesting insight into the markup pricing.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline Marcus01  
#5 Posted : 04 December 2019 06:17:31(UTC)
Marcus01

New Zealand   
Joined: 10/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 24
Are you sure you are comparing apples with apples? My export price from lokshop (no VAT) is just cheaper than Märklin website... (under EU500)...
Offline Goofy  
#6 Posted : 04 December 2019 07:00:58(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
UVP are for the reseller.
When i visit Märklin shop for the private person, i see the prices are standard like in the store shops.
Sometimes do reseller sell trains for extra prices, which Märklin shop does not?
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline river6109  
#7 Posted : 04 December 2019 07:15:08(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Its not a practise encouraged by any manufacturer, most manufacturers ask you not to sell items under the recommended retail price but no manufacturer actually show wholesale prices.

Märklin made a stupid and embarrassing error and yes retailers could be furious.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline Drongo  
#8 Posted : 04 December 2019 10:38:59(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
This is a very obvious mistake by Marklin. I believe that the top executives need a real kick up the behind. The quality of their products has deteriorated badly and they are doing nothing to rectify the problems. All they are doing is looking at the bottom line and not concentrating on what they do best - build quality model trains. Sad - really sad.
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#9 Posted : 04 December 2019 11:44:50(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,655
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I find the Maerklin website pricing mistake unbelievable.
Certainly the 39714 is 499.9 Euros as at this moment.

A German dealer I know has the price at 629.9 Euros.
Maerklin do not seem to be aware of the mistake ....

Of course Maerklin do not legally have to supply at that price to an end-user (consumer).
All they have to do is say they made a mistake.
But it creates confusion and frustration for all.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
Offline river6109  
#10 Posted : 04 December 2019 11:47:10(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
This is a very obvious mistake by Marklin. I believe that the top executives need a real kick up the behind. The quality of their products has deteriorated badly and they are doing nothing to rectify the problems. All they are doing is looking at the bottom line and not concentrating on what they do best - build quality model trains. Sad - really sad.


I didn't know its gone that bad, I thought they have produced quality locos although at a hefty price tag, as I don't follow Märklin as much as I did in the 80's (more or less collected every model) I did notice that over this time period they've produced a lot of the same loco type but for some reasons they had buyers who filled their pockets with the same type of model with some minor adjustments.
It is may be true to say the company is looking after profits and may consider putting the company onto the market again.
Nobody knows their intentions and employees would be the last ones who would have any incline what is happening in the future with this company.While they have orders and most probably increasing orders, there is no reason to change their attitude or innovations for new and current products, I've mentioned it before the man hours it must take to fix all the faulty products and anyone with a sense of how a company should be run would think its an area whereas quality can be improved at the production level or to set off the costs of repairs is reflected in the selling price., further more if you would add all the spare parts to build a loco you most probably could buy 4 finished locos off the shelf., if you get the part.

for instance Hag locos have very little plastic parts and I can't think of 1 of them., its all metal even the bogie is made out of metal with extreme details but we get told metal castings you can't reproduce the detail like with plastic. I think these days its all about how can we reduce the cost price of a loco and the answer seems to be plastic.

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline H0  
#11 Posted : 04 December 2019 12:12:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
People make mistakes.

The prices on the Märklin site could be dealer prices - with or without VAT - or some different prices. Their webshop shows the same prices, but you cannot put the items into the basket and you cannot order them. Situation would be different if you could place an order at that price (most likely not binding for Märklin) and would receive an order confirmation from Märklin.

I'm sure they will soon have the correct prices in the shop and the product database. With Märklin "soon" could be a matter of minutes or months - time will tell.

In the past there were different dealer price lists depending on the size of the dealer.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 04 December 2019 21:07:01(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


The prices on the Märklin site could be dealer prices - with or without VAT - or some different prices.


Roland at LokShop indicated they were the dealer prices; I've got no reason to believe he would mislead me. As VAT is added at each step of the distribution, the price to the dealer would always include the manufacturer-to-retailer VAT when both are inside the EU.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline kiwiAlan  
#13 Posted : 04 December 2019 22:31:05(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


The prices on the Märklin site could be dealer prices - with or without VAT - or some different prices.


Roland at LokShop indicated they were the dealer prices; I've got no reason to believe he would mislead me. As VAT is added at each step of the distribution, the price to the dealer would always include the manufacturer-to-retailer VAT when both are inside the EU.


Only if the dealer doesn't have a VAT registration.

If the prices on the website are dealer price then I would expect it to be VAT free, and would be charged as such to a VAT registered dealer. That is how the system works. Marklin would only charge VAT if the dealer doesn't have VAT registration, and it would be on topof that price.

Offline Minok  
#14 Posted : 05 December 2019 00:17:56(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post


The prices on the Märklin site could be dealer prices - with or without VAT - or some different prices.


Roland at LokShop indicated they were the dealer prices; I've got no reason to believe he would mislead me. As VAT is added at each step of the distribution, the price to the dealer would always include the manufacturer-to-retailer VAT when both are inside the EU.


Only if the dealer doesn't have a VAT registration.

If the prices on the website are dealer price then I would expect it to be VAT free, and would be charged as such to a VAT registered dealer. That is how the system works. Marklin would only charge VAT if the dealer doesn't have VAT registration, and it would be on topof that price.



Well, that could be as I'm not sure I deeply understand how the EU / German VAT system works.

My understanding and assumption in the post is that VAT is added at each step of the product/distribution process.
So when components are purchased by a manufacturer that they get from another manufacturer, there is a VAT added to those parts when the main manufacturer assembles the finished product. Then another VAT is added when the manufacture sells/ships to a distributor (if there is such a system), etc, and finally the final VAT is added when the retailer sells it to the end purchaser. So several levels of VAT are applied. The prices shown would include all levels of VAT to that point and reflect what the retailer (in this case) has to pay to Märklin which includes the Märklin->Dealer VAT in it already.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline kimballthurlow  
#15 Posted : 05 December 2019 00:44:32(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,655
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
People make mistakes.....

I'm sure they will soon have the correct prices in the shop and the product database. ...


Yes just another day at the office.

Database management is quite rigid and a small error in coding to show prices on a website can cause a problem.
The products where prices are erroneous have been locked from view, until they find the problem code.

Kimball

HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline hxmiesa  
#16 Posted : 05 December 2019 09:18:57(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
I understand that in Europe it works like this;
Normally VAT is not shown or used between commercial sellers and buyes. Only the end-user has to pay the VAT.
Companies buying material and machinery in order to run their businesses doesnt pay VAT either. (or they get a refund later from the state)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline LongHairedDavid  
#17 Posted : 05 December 2019 11:50:42(UTC)
LongHairedDavid


Joined: 04/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: England, Ipswich
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
I understand that in Europe it works like this;
Normally VAT is not shown or used between commercial sellers and buyes. Only the end-user has to pay the VAT.
Companies buying material and machinery in order to run their businesses doesnt pay VAT either. (or they get a refund later from the state)


Not how it works here. VAT goes up the chain. When I had a shop, I paid VAT on my wholesale purchases and charges VAT on my retail sales. I then paid the VAT difference to HMRC. However, my wholesaler showed me prices ex-VAT and then added it on a purchase time. All intra business here is normally quoted ex-vat and it is assumed that all VAT registered businesses understand that.

My supplier would have paid VAT on his purchases and so it goes up and down the chain. The revenue get payments from every VAT registered entity so it all gets charged in the end.
Long Haired David
AKA David Pennington
A mystified Maerklin Newbie
Offline kiwiAlan  
#18 Posted : 05 December 2019 11:53:03(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post


Well, that could be as I'm not sure I deeply understand how the EU / German VAT system works.

My understanding and assumption in the post is that VAT is added at each step of the product/distribution process.
So when components are purchased by a manufacturer that they get from another manufacturer, there is a VAT added to those parts when the main manufacturer assembles the finished product. Then another VAT is added when the manufacture sells/ships to a distributor (if there is such a system), etc, and finally the final VAT is added when the retailer sells it to the end purchaser. So several levels of VAT are applied. The prices shown would include all levels of VAT to that point and reflect what the retailer (in this case) has to pay to Märklin which includes the Märklin->Dealer VAT in it already.


Yes, your description is what happens when deals are done between companies that have no VAT registration - but once you get above a certain value in your transactions you have to be VAT registered anyway (in the UK I believe this is about £50,000). But the other thing to note is that when reselling the VAT added is only on the increase in value, not the full value of the transaction. This then results on the total VAT received by the Inland Revenue being the same if the transaction process between the source of the product and the final purchaser is a single step or multiple steps, (assuming there is no difference in the final price).

So the government allows transfers between VAT registered businesses to be VAT free, with VAT only being paid by a business if it becomes the end consumer of a product, or sells to a non-VAT registered person or business. Any documentation relating to a VAT free transfer has to reference the VAT registration number of the receiving business, so the transaction is still tracked.
Offline David Dewar  
#19 Posted : 05 December 2019 12:24:50(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: LongHairedDavid Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
I understand that in Europe it works like this;
Normally VAT is not shown or used between commercial sellers and buyes. Only the end-user has to pay the VAT.
Companies buying material and machinery in order to run their businesses doesnt pay VAT either. (or they get a refund later from the state)


Not how it works here. VAT goes up the chain. When I had a shop, I paid VAT on my wholesale purchases and charges VAT on my retail sales. I then paid the VAT difference to HMRC. However, my wholesaler showed me prices ex-VAT and then added it on a purchase time. All intra business here is normally quoted ex-vat and it is assumed that all VAT registered businesses understand that.

My supplier would have paid VAT on his purchases and so it goes up and down the chain. The revenue get payments from every VAT registered entity so it all gets charged in the end.


David that is exactly correct. What other countries do I have no idea but in the UK prices (other than retail) are shown without VAT as are services and VAT added at the point of purchase.

If you are not registered you still pay VAT but do not charge it.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Online JohnjeanB  
#20 Posted : 05 December 2019 13:12:53(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi
I don't know about the particular case you mention but:
- on the German version of their website you have prices which are advised prices for Germany including VAT. At "good shops" (MSL-Lippe, Meise Modellbahn,..) you may find smaller prices on internet purchases.
- Some Märklin "UVP" seem more "enforceable than others like on Insider prices (those prices are also applied elsewhere in Europe)
- in France the prices are usually 20 to 30% more expensive so internet shopping is cheaper (German prices + 9€ shipment)
Cheers

Jean
Offline H0  
#21 Posted : 05 December 2019 13:50:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
In Germany dealer prices are usually shown without VAT.
So the €198.67 is most likely without VAT while the RRP of €299.99 includes VAT.
So if the dealer buys the item for €198.67 and sells it for €299.99 then their profit will be €53.42. Dealers selling at €269.99 will have less profit.
Just an attempt to compare apples with apples. Dealer profits are not as large as the screen shots in the first post may suggest at first glance.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Mark_1602  
#22 Posted : 05 December 2019 14:09:23(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi everyone,

Just noticed this thread and verified my German dealer's price: 556 euros for regular customers. I also had a look at the Märklin product database, but right now there is no search result for 39714. I guess Märklin is correcting the error.

About ten yeas ago, I first visited my Märklin dealer in Germany and had a talk about Märklin with him. He told me that even on expensive items, he only makes a small profit. He has a big online store in addition to his brick-and-mortar shop in a small town near Göppingen, so he can still make ends meet.

Edited by user 23 February 2020 09:12:48(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline kgsjoqvist  
#23 Posted : 05 December 2019 21:11:04(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 754
Location: Täby
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: LongHairedDavid Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: hxmiesa Go to Quoted Post
I understand that in Europe it works like this;
Normally VAT is not shown or used between commercial sellers and buyes. Only the end-user has to pay the VAT.
Companies buying material and machinery in order to run their businesses doesnt pay VAT either. (or they get a refund later from the state)


Not how it works here. VAT goes up the chain. When I had a shop, I paid VAT on my wholesale purchases and charges VAT on my retail sales. I then paid the VAT difference to HMRC. However, my wholesaler showed me prices ex-VAT and then added it on a purchase time. All intra business here is normally quoted ex-vat and it is assumed that all VAT registered businesses understand that.

My supplier would have paid VAT on his purchases and so it goes up and down the chain. The revenue get payments from every VAT registered entity so it all gets charged in the end.


David that is exactly correct. What other countries do I have no idea but in the UK prices (other than retail) are shown without VAT as are services and VAT added at the point of purchase.

If you are not registered you still pay VAT but do not charge it.


All EU countries have the same VAT directive that they need to follow. Business to business transactions within the same country always have VAT on the Invoice. But the buyer gets a refund for the inbound VAT, so VAT is only charged on the added value. The final customer then pays the VAT on the full retail price.

When a sale is crossing the borders to another EU-country VAT is not added on the invoice if the buyer has a VAT number. Because VAT is to be paid in the country where the service or product is consumed. But if a business sells to private persons they have to present the price including VAT. If you buy items online and the shop sends you the products from another EU country they may charge VAT in their country, but above a certain limit of sales per year to each country they have to register for VAT and pay it in the customer’s country. It is a bit complicated, because VAT can be 18% in one country and 25% in another.

K-G / H0 and Z model train user
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Offline David Dewar  
#24 Posted : 05 December 2019 23:57:11(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
In Germany dealer prices are usually shown without VAT.
So the €198.67 is most likely without VAT while the RRP of €299.99 includes VAT.
So if the dealer buys the item for €198.67 and sells it for €299.99 then their profit will be €53.42. Dealers selling at €269.99 will have less profit.
Just an attempt to compare apples with apples. Dealer profits are not as large as the screen shots in the first post may suggest at first glance.


Tom Why would the dealer sell at 269.99. He can sell at 299.99 same as the one paying VAT. Selling price remains the same with or without VAT although if purchases by a business they can not reclaim VAT In the UK not being registered for VAT increases your profit if selling to the public at the normal selling price. However I expect all dealers will be registered unless it is one person on ebay just selling less than the VAT turnover and your view will be correct in almost all cases.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline TEEWolf  
#25 Posted : 06 December 2019 01:30:58(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Hi everyone,

Just noticed this thread and verified my German dealer's price: 556 euros for regular customers. I also had a look at the Märklin product database, but right now there is no search result for 39714. I guess Märklin is correcting the error.

About ten yeas ago, I first visited my Märklin dealer in Germany and had a talk about Märklin with him. He told me that even on expensive items, he only makes a small profit. He has a big online store in addition to his brick-and-mortar shop in a small town near Göppingen, so he can still make ends meet.

Best regards,

Mark


Indeed, the IC 4 websites from Maerklin are offline at the moment. Perhaps, because I called my dealer where I have ordered the IC 4 and talked to him about the lowest price guarantee. He was not yet informed about this 28,5% price decline. But he did not want to reduce my price before he had talked to Maerklin. I guess he did it same day and Maerklin closed down these websites. Interesting what will come up.
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