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Offline Poor Skeleton  
#1 Posted : 17 November 2019 22:14:17(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 193
Location: England, Cambridge
Hi,

I wonder if anyone can tell me how many first class (Am203) and second class ( Bm234) coaches would normally make up a train and what would normally haul them over non-electrified routes.

I’m contemplating a new layout and would like to run scale length trains, but I don’t really know what they would be!
Thanks for your help

Chris
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Offline mike c  
#2 Posted : 18 November 2019 03:15:50(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,622
Location: Montreal, QC
A train could have varying numbers of coaches, depending on the route, the day, the time of day and many other factors.

A long distance train can normally have up to 14 coaches (modern). Train length depends on the number of passengers using that route (based on statistics). If a train runs once a day, it might be longer than a train that runs every two hours. Some trains will also contain a combination of national and international coaches.

For model trains, most people limit their consists due to space constraints to somewhere between 4 and 7 coaches.
That given, for such a consist, the makeup in Era III and Era IV might have been

Lok - Baggage - A (1st) - A (2nd) - Restaurant - B (2nd) - B (2nd) - B (2nd)
To save space, some modellers might omit the baggage or the restaurant, which would then allow for additional coaches.
In reality, some trains might have had combined seating/baggage or seating/diner coaches for the same reason.

Here are some links to sites providing consisting information.

I will start by this one: http://www.heinrich-hank...enbahn/zugbildung/_d.htm

http://www.welt-der-modelleisenbahn.com

This website allows you to look up the various train classes and learn about routes and compositions.

There were two books published by Miba written by Michael Meinhold about Consists called Zugbildung Epoch (Era) III and IV
I have seen the Era IV as a web book that can be downloaded.
I have seen the Era III one on ebay.de
Both books are in German, but have photos and diagrams that can be of use.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline Poor Skeleton  
#3 Posted : 18 November 2019 20:17:07(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 193
Location: England, Cambridge
Thanks Mike,

That's really helpful!

Cheers


Chris
Offline Carim  
#4 Posted : 19 November 2019 10:07:02(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 428
Location: London
You may find this site helpful: https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/

Carim
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Offline Poor Skeleton  
#5 Posted : 19 November 2019 21:34:15(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 193
Location: England, Cambridge
Thanks that is helpful - particularly that the trains are depicted pictorially!


Chris
Offline Minok  
#6 Posted : 19 November 2019 22:36:02(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,152
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
The starting point needs to be which era and/or train you are looking to model. Then look at the routes for that particular train.

EG, the German InterCity trains initially were 100% first class; it wasn't till May 1979 that they then added the 2nd class to the IC trains there.

In the end, though, you should run what looks good to you. If they are distance trains then a ratio similar to what airplanes have on seating capacity in 1st/business vs coach classes may be reasonable; for local trains its often none or a tiny fraction (part of a car) as 1st class and thats it.

Your planning to run full length trains, so 7+ car trains for many of the trains I suspect. So you will have more flexibility to make it look interesting.
On my planning, as I'm focused on route dispatching and less on prototypical length, I'll be running 3 car trains, so my trains that have 1st class will have 1 car in the 1st class for normal trains, or maybe 2 if I'm doing the intercity design (which would be 66% 1st class, 33% 2nd class).
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline Poor Skeleton  
#7 Posted : 19 November 2019 23:27:04(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 193
Location: England, Cambridge
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
The starting point needs to be which era and/or train you are looking to model.


That is good advice - if only I knew anything about DB stock and eras! I seem to have collected quite a few 8710/8711 (Z Scale - hence it not being out of the question to run scale length trains) coaches, so I suppose that puts me in the 1980s, which suits me fine!

I do seem to have collected a disproportionately large number of first class coaches, though, so I've taken comfort that an all first class train isn't a ridiculous proposition!

Thanks for your help


Chris

Offline Alsterstreek  
#8 Posted : 20 November 2019 00:23:13(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,767
Location: Southwesternmost
Those coaches are era IV, i.e. 1965 - 1990. Looking for non-electrified trains with blue first class coaches only? How about the F-Zug (Fernzug) = long distance train network which had the the aim to connect the major German cities and centres with predominantly short and fast one-class trains with blue coaches (and almost never with a baggage car). These trains were replaced by IC trains in 1971. F-Zug overview: http://www.welt-der-modelleisenbahn.com/f-zug.html

A diesel hauled example (Hamburg, 1959);
PB%20original1959HH.jpg

A more democratic version with two green second class coaches and one blue first class coach (Puttgarden, 1978).
HL1978Puttgarden.jpg

Other examples of longer diesel-hauled trains:
http://www.bundesbahnzeit.de/seite.php?id=497

Other examples of longer steam-hauled trains:
http://www.bundesbahnzeit.de/seite.php?id=463
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 20 November 2019 09:32:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,709
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
These trains were replaced by IC trains in 1971.
And IC trains remained "first class only" until 1979.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Carim  
#10 Posted : 20 November 2019 09:38:37(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 428
Location: London
Originally Posted by: Poor Skeleton Go to Quoted Post
I seem to have collected quite a few 8710/8711 .....


This article may be of interest as well: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIC-X-Wagen_(DB)
It is in German but Google translate should be able to cope.


Carim
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Offline Poor Skeleton  
#11 Posted : 20 November 2019 22:35:39(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 193
Location: England, Cambridge
Lots of really useful information there - thanks to everyone who has contributed. It will take a while to digest it all, but it looks like I can put together some authentic looking trains with coaches and stock I already have.

Thanks again


Chris
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Offline Poor Skeleton  
#12 Posted : 03 February 2020 18:51:08(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 193
Location: England, Cambridge
By way of follow-up, can anyone here tell me what type of buffet car would run with the blue and ivory coaches?

Marklin don't seem ever to have made a matching buffet car (in Z) and I'd like to know if that's just because DB didn't have one and, if so, what they ran instead?

Thanks!


Chris
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 03 February 2020 19:08:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,709
Location: DE-NW
A Google search for "db quick pick" will find some era IV coaches in blue/ivory (not Z gauge, I'm afraid).
There were dining coaches in red/cream for IC and TEE trains. And IIRC there were dining coaches in red also, maybe even in green/red or blue/red. And there were Popwagen dining coaches.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Minok  
#14 Posted : 03 February 2020 20:38:27(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,152
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
The blue/ivory was for a class of service train that didn't have dining cars as part of regular service, hence the full dining cars only came in the creme/red livery. For exclusive blue/ivory trains, there were snackbar (as mentioned) and other cars (entertainment cars) I believe. Though apparently dining cars did exist:

UserPostedImage

I think the car designation is WRmz but finding one in blue/beige is another question.


Interesting thread here: https://www.tapatalk.com...livery-t8083.html#p52079 where it is said that these rare beasts did run in the TEE class trains, though I cannot spot it in the image.

UserPostedImage
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 03 February 2020 22:57:48(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,709
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Interesting thread here: https://www.tapatalk.com...livery-t8083.html#p52079 where it is said that these rare beasts did run in the TEE class trains, though I cannot spot it in the image.
Not a TEE class train on that picture shown here.
Somebody thought the second coach was a dining coach, but it isn't. It is a baggage coach.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Minok  
#16 Posted : 03 February 2020 23:22:27(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,152
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Yeah, so far I've only been able to spot a limited run of a model maker producing one, but have not found a photo of an actual one from the 70's or 80's that existed. If they did, it would be rare, so I'd say just stick with the snack bar car.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline Carim  
#17 Posted : 04 February 2020 18:46:06(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 428
Location: London
Chris, in my 1986/87 catalogue, Märklin list restaurant car type WRmh132 (8723) alongside the blue/ivory express passenger cars.

Carim
Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 04 February 2020 20:56:02(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,152
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
So the dining car that was part of the train was the red based one then, if we used that as the guidance, as that looks like its from the era of the Pop Color scheme.
UserPostedImage
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline Poor Skeleton  
#19 Posted : 04 February 2020 21:10:08(UTC)
Poor Skeleton

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 193
Location: England, Cambridge
Thanks so much for all the really helpful replies!

I feel I should be doing the googling myself, but there's so much knowledge here, it's hard not to take advantage of it!


Chris
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