Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline mjmonjure  
#1 Posted : 08 October 2019 04:15:57(UTC)
mjmonjure

United States   
Joined: 23/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Hoschton, GA
Hoping there might be someone who runs both Marklin 3-rail and non Marklin 2-rail (meaning not Trix but regular DCC) with their CS3. I recently came from the Lionel O gauge world back to HO and Marklin. Easy peesy, plugged it all in and it just works, loco sensing MFX decoders and minimal time messing with the CS3 except to set up turnouts and accessories. The problem is that I really miss the 1 big diecast Lionel HO locomotive (6-58006) engine that I sold many years ago (before my O-gauge fascination), but as luck would have it, I found a brand new one on ebay and bought it with the CS3 in mind.

I have come to the conclusion though that I cannot commingle my 3-rail Marklin locos with any 2-rail locos (i.e. on the same track) since there is only 1 track connection on the CS3 and its an either or situation based on supplied track wiring instructions. I would welcome any work around there if anyone has done it. I am a little concerned that the CS3/60065 switched mode power pack may not be enough for the very heavy Lionel loco. The Lionel instruction manual suggests MRC Control Master 20, MRC Tech 4 Series, or the Bridgewerks Magnum Series transformers, but does not give any detail about wattage or constant voltage required. Any experiences here would be welcomed.
Offline PeFu  
#2 Posted : 08 October 2019 13:54:43(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 648
No problem, you can split the two cables from the CS3, and feed both a Märklin 3-rail layout and any 2-rail layout, simultaneously. There could be a CS3 capacity problem, though, if running several trains.

Cool
The Great Krok!
Inspired by Swiss railways (SBB/BLS/SOB), C and K track, CS2, TrainController Gold V9
Offline JohnjeanB  
#3 Posted : 08 October 2019 15:25:22(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 555
Location: Paris, France
Hi both

Pefu is right Having 2 disconnected zones in your layout solves the problem : one for 2 rails and one for 3 rails a simple rail insulator between the 2 zones is good provided you don't try to cross the zones. If you do it will only cause a short circuit.
As to the CS3 capacity, I don't know but with my CS2 and a 100W (60101 Märklin power supply) powers without any problem 32 locos (all with power on, sound, lighted cars, etc with 2.7 amps when 5 amps are available.
So very high chances your Lionel can be powered unless your PSU is too weak. For instance I may include on my layout my Märklin 3015 (CCS800) with a huge motor needing up to 25 Watts on top of all other locos.
cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
latest vid
humping yard
Offline TEEWolf  
#4 Posted : 08 October 2019 20:55:04(UTC)
TEEWolf

Germany   
Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 1,934
Originally Posted by: mjmonjure Go to Quoted Post
Hoping there might be someone who runs both Marklin 3-rail and non Marklin 2-rail (meaning not Trix but regular DCC) with their CS3. I recently came from the Lionel O gauge world back to HO and Marklin. Easy peesy, plugged it all in and it just works, loco sensing MFX decoders and minimal time messing with the CS3 except to set up turnouts and accessories. The problem is that I really miss the 1 big diecast Lionel HO locomotive (6-58006) engine that I sold many years ago (before my O-gauge fascination), but as luck would have it, I found a brand new one on ebay and bought it with the CS3 in mind.

I have come to the conclusion though that I cannot commingle my 3-rail Marklin locos with any 2-rail locos (i.e. on the same track) since there is only 1 track connection on the CS3 and its an either or situation based on supplied track wiring instructions. I would welcome any work around there if anyone has done it. I am a little concerned that the CS3/60065 switched mode power pack may not be enough for the very heavy Lionel loco. The Lionel instruction manual suggests MRC Control Master 20, MRC Tech 4 Series, or the Bridgewerks Magnum Series transformers, but does not give any detail about wattage or constant voltage required. Any experiences here would be welcomed.



You came to the right conclusion running locos with AC and DC on the same layout is not possible. It is dangerous. But you can use a CS 3 as well as for AC (e.g. Maerklin) and DC (e.g. Trix, LGB, etc.) as well as for the various track formats (mfx, DCC, MM , etc.)

For using AC or DC in the USA (you have to be aware about the differences to Europe in the voltage 120 V versus 230 V) Maerklin is just altering its power supplies. See here:

https://www.maerklin.de/...s/details/article/60045/

which shall be available in November 2019.

Also Maerklin has issued several documents of security reason about power supplies.

https://www.maerklin.de/...itched-mode-power-packs/

https://www.maerklin.de/...rische_Sicherheit_en.pdf

And of course Maerklin offers a power supply for the track box using in the USA.

Especially the new power supply makes it very easy switching between AC and DC by its new switcher.

In Germany the power supply art #60061 has 60 V and provides 3 A power. The power supply art #60101 has 100 V providing 5 A power. The 60101 is recommended for gauge 1 and LGB. As it is in the USA you should ask an electrician.

And do not forget to use an adequate diameter for the cables.

Within a CS 3 under menue tree systems - settings you select the power supply for usage.
CS 3 is a controller system from Märklin - not a central station.
Offline mjmonjure  
#5 Posted : 09 October 2019 01:40:37(UTC)
mjmonjure

United States   
Joined: 23/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Hoschton, GA
Excellent news and thanks to all! Very happy to hear I can use both. Will update if I trip along the way.
Offline mjmonjure  
#6 Posted : 09 October 2019 05:09:07(UTC)
mjmonjure

United States   
Joined: 23/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Hoschton, GA
Ok, before I get too far down the road, let make sure I understand. I can run two separate independent layouts. I can split the CS3 outbound track wire and assuming I have enough power, it will power both independent segments. Where it becomes murky is the AC/DC piece. I assumed that Marklin was 3-rail AC and any 2-rail track system required DC (Trix or others). How does the CS3 simultaneously output both AC and DC OR is this a locomotive dependency which gets resolved at the decoder level?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in this configuration, why are zones/rail insulators required if the track systems are physically separated?
Offline mike c  
#7 Posted : 09 October 2019 05:18:56(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,378
Location: Montreal, QC
If you are running both layouts using a CS3, you can run the Maerklin layout using MM/DCC/MFX and the other layout using only DCC.
In order to provide enough power for each layout, you might be best served by using boosters as appropriate.

The CS3 operates using DC power. Since the 6021 was replaced by the Mobile Station/Central Station, Maerklin has been powering digital layouts with DC.
AC operation is only possible if still using the original design analog transformers or the 6021 family of controllers.

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 09 October 2019 07:51:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: mjmonjure Go to Quoted Post
I assumed that Marklin was 3-rail AC and any 2-rail track system required DC (Trix or others).
This assumption is completely wrong.
With DCC you have "alternating current" (rectangular wave, not sine wave) on the track and analogue control cars will show red and white lights at the same time.

Märklin Digital uses "digital current" and DCC uses "digital current" and with digital operation the same controllers and the same decoders are used for two-rail and three-rail nowadays.

The 6021 generates the same track output as a Central Station. The internal operation is different and a 6021 can only operate with AC on the input side while a CS needs DC on the input side. Do not believe it if someone tells you the 6021 modulates digital instructions on top of AC while the CS modulates digital instructions on top of DC. The output format is the same for both.

Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
The CS3 operates using DC power. Since the 6021 was replaced by the Mobile Station/Central Station, Maerklin has been powering digital layouts with DC.
AC operation is only possible if still using the original design analog transformers or the 6021 family of controllers.
Almost true.
The digital track output of a 6021 is neither sine-wave AC nor DC. The digital track output of a CS is neither sine-wave AC nor DC.
Digital layout power has not changed, only the power feed of digital controllers has changed over time.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Purellum  
#9 Posted : 09 October 2019 09:29:09(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,168
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
But you can use a CS 3 as well as for AC (e.g. Maerklin) and DC (e.g. Trix, LGB, etc.) as well as for the various track formats (mfx, DCC, MM , etc.)


No, you can't use a CS3 for controlling neither AC nor DC locomotives.

Please please PLEASE stop writing about things you don't understand.

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#10 Posted : 09 October 2019 10:32:01(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 16,720
Location: New Zealand
I think folks are using the terms 'AC' and 'DC' rather loosely!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline Purellum  
#11 Posted : 09 October 2019 10:41:00(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,168
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I think folks are using the terms 'AC' and 'DC' rather loosely!


Yes, it's a very old way of distinguishing 3-rail and 2-rail systems that doesn't make sense any more.

In reality we should call the digital signal ADC; but that would probably just create more confusion ;-)

Per.

P.S: Even spelling AC DC can be difficult - for some Australians BigGrin


Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Purellum
Offline hxmiesa  
#12 Posted : 09 October 2019 12:19:42(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,726
Location: Spain
Well, I have a lot of AC and DC motors on my layout, but I cant connect a CS3 directly to it... ;-)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline PJMärklin  
#13 Posted : 09 October 2019 12:26:52(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,387
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
I think folks are using the terms 'AC' and 'DC' rather loosely!


Yes, it's a very old way of distinguishing 3-rail and 2-rail systems that doesn't make sense any more.

In reality we should call the digital signal ADC; but that would probably just create more confusion ;-)

Per.

P.S: Even spelling AC DC can be difficult - for some Australians BigGrin





Hi Per,BigGrin

Yes, but I expect if you trawled enough in most countries you would find those who could not spell even their mother's name.

Even your correct self has misspelt the band's name, as did your attached sound video clip - it should include a "forward slash" : AC/DC Flapper

You may be aware that the name for their band came from Malcolm and Angus Young after their sister, Margaret Young, saw the designation "AC/DC" on a sewing machine switch.

There are even streets named after the band, as you can see this lane in Melbourne is correctly spelt with the forward slash:


UserPostedImage


In any event they sound great in any spelling - this is the iconic video Love :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sUXMzkh-jI

(but then even the sign on the back of the truck at timeline 1:03 is misspelt : using a dash or dot rather than a forward slash !Blushing OhMyGod )


Regards,

PJ
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by PJMärklin
Offline mjmonjure  
#14 Posted : 09 October 2019 19:07:15(UTC)
mjmonjure

United States   
Joined: 23/03/2019(UTC)
Posts: 8
Location: Hoschton, GA
Thanks guys. My layout is pretty simple. I have a 60065 switching mode PS and the CS3. I think the way forward for me is to set up 2 test tracks, one 2-rail with the DCC Lionel HO loco and a 3-rail with one of my MFX Marklin locos. If both work independently as I expect they will based on your feedback, I'll change the toggle switch to a Y connection to see if I can address both locos simultaneously. Worse case it blows out a loco or the CS3, but I know first hand that the CSE has a shorting protection circuit, so not too worried there. The second worse case is that one or both of the locos just won't work, but at least I'll have my answer.
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 10 October 2019 00:07:05(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mjmonjure Go to Quoted Post
[...] I'll change the toggle switch to a Y connection to see if I can address both locos simultaneously.
We have done it before - we used an ESU ECoS and there was no Lionel loco involved, but we had one controller for two-rail and three-rail using mfx, dcc, and MM protocols.

The worst malfunction I would expect are very old decoders that switch to analogue operation and refuse to digital signals - I've seen that with old single-protocol decoders that got confused by multi-protocol signals.
I don't think there is any risk of anything letting the magic smoke out.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Goofy  
#16 Posted : 10 October 2019 06:58:45(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,051
AC and DC are power identification.
AC means alternate current and DC means direct current.
AC and DC has nothing to do with the model Railway.
Märklin could have present DC current for the three rail too by use power supply instead of trafo.
In fact digital signal present for both 2 and 3 rail system today.
I wish Märklin could have choice DCC instead of mfx and MM.
Just only one protocol on the layout is enough.
If you have multi protocol decoder, i recommended you just only one protocol accept on the track.
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2019, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.558 seconds.