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Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#1 Posted : 01 September 2019 15:25:30(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,588
Hi friends,

A few weeks ago I was shown photos of a big Italian collection that would be put up for sale. I was interested to research it but most of the items were from the 1950s and newer and the prices seemed very high to me. The collection contained some interesting sets that were supposedly rare. Now many have shown up on eBay from the seller. Here's one:

https://rover.ebay.com/r...d%3Ag%3A4E4AAOSwPW9dYVeU

Is anyone familiar with this set? To me the number scheme doesn't make sense - do any of the set contents end it "15" ?

Best wishes,

Paul
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Offline kamstutz  
#2 Posted : 01 September 2019 21:19:51(UTC)
kamstutz

United States   
Joined: 27/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 153
Location: Orlando, FL
Paul - I have never seen this numbering of sets ending in "15" either. The DA800 first appeared in the 1954 catalog, as was the first starter set (DA 846/3) that contained the BR 23. The set was combined with 3 #346 series passenger cars though and not freight cars as are shown in the ebay auction. The 393C Marklin inscribed canopy covered flatcar and the 308/1 Wine wagon date from 1955-1957 I think since they look to have pin type axles(?). The 361G lumber truck looks to be from 1952-1955(?). Finally the 308/2 (#4511) Pulverized Coal wagon was first produced in 1955. All of these cars were available in 1955 so that is the earliest date that I could place on the cars in this set (based on what I can see in the photos). The seller mentions in the auction that it is from 1956, which is plausible. The lumber truck was produced in 1956 with Koll's type 6 couplers (can't see them from the auction photos to confirm) so either 1955 or 1956 seems like a good guess to date the contents of the set.

Whether or not the set was produced for the American market is a good question. I still have the price list from the 1955 catalog that I got with the trains that my father bought me from the same year, but he bought the trains in Germany and the price list (in German) makes no mention of a "DA 815/5 set" - only the DA 846/3 set. While nothing indicates that the set is not legitimate I'd prefer to find mention of another set of the same number before spending the money the seller is asking.
I'd feel safer knowing that at least another example existed somewhere...

Kurt
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Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#3 Posted : 01 September 2019 22:05:46(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,588
Thanks Kurt! that is a very good idea to look at price lists. I have some dealer books and letters from dealers in the US from the 1950s. I'll have to look there are see if this set is mentioned at all.

Paul
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Offline Pmare4  
#4 Posted : 02 September 2019 08:34:05(UTC)
Pmare4

Australia   
Joined: 15/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 224
Location: Queensland, Brisbane
Hi all,

It seems to me that the set is completely fabricated, and in an Italian replica box - the numbering makes very little sense for one thing.

I believe that a "3400" set (3000 loco, and 3 4000 coaches) has also appeared for sale in the past, and was discussed here on the forum some time ago.

I find it rather interesting that the seller has taken hardly any photographs of the small compartment containing the 308/2 on the top level, which seems to be the only difference between the box of this set, and the box of an F846/4 passenger set aside from the label.

Similarly, the heavily worn slider on the loco seems to contrast with the excellent condition of the rest of the items.

The "extraordinarily rare" lumber wagon seems to be a 4665, and most definitely does not belong in the set.

Best regards
Peter

Edited by user 02 September 2019 13:05:52(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
Collecting vintage Märklin from 1935-1970, also Hornby O Gauge
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 02 September 2019 13:21:27(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 522
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Like you I checked my old Marklin catalogs (1953 to 1957) the set is not listed.
It does not look like a fake but the price seems to me just plain crazy.
Cheers
Jean
My lay-out videos
General operation
Loco change
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Offline Tiki734  
#6 Posted : 03 September 2019 06:39:52(UTC)
Tiki734

Australia   
Joined: 13/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 209
Location: Perth
Hi
At first I thought it look original but there are too many discrepancies like the varying versions and years of the wagons. The label if not original is a very good copy. I think the asking price is very optimistic considering there is no way the set can be verified. Even if it is original you would have to have some serious cash to buy it. Realistically the value is a nice engine $100, wagons maybe $50 and a box $75. Anything more than that and the buyer will get burnt.
Only my 2 dollars worth.
Roger
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Offline cookee_nz  
#7 Posted : 03 September 2019 12:29:50(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,047
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Just my 02 cents, over the past few years I have been researching Starter sets, they are a study in themselves and I love them.

I would possibly look at this in reverse, ie assume the set is authentic, and then research reasons why it may not be, and at the same time look for validation of how it could be authentic.

The set code has me intrigued. "DA 815/5" is quite unique. If it's fake, why choose those specific numbers?

Take that a step further. All the pre-57 sets have similar coding structure, there must be a system to them. And it was only a few months ago that one of our members did an analysis of the Loco number coding, which personally I considered to be well researched and very plausible. I cannot find it now on my mobile but someone will recall it.

I'd suggest a similar analysis of the start set numbering will help determine the decoding of the set number.

It is still possible that this is a custom order as described in the auction, and the code may be a good clue. I doubt it's a one-off, but I would not doubt that this might be the first one to make a public appearance. Perhaps FAO Schwarz ordered a certain quantity of them?

At this stage Im not prepared to write it off, I've saved the images and description to my 'verify' folder of start sets for future research/validation. If it does prove to be fake, it's still an interesting story. If it's genuine, one day another will surface, sure as eggs.

And who does not love a mystery?

As for one or more mis-matched wagons, well that sometimes happens even with genuine sets once they've changed hands.

I do agree the asking price is optimistic to say the least.

Cheers
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#8 Posted : 03 September 2019 12:40:25(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,460
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post

It is still possible that this is a custom order as described in the auction, and the code may be a good clue. I doubt it's a one-off, but I would not doubt that this might be the first one to make a public appearance. Perhaps FAO Schwarz ordered a certain quantity of them?


Another possibility is that it is a valid set number, as a special order, but that the wagons are totally wrong for this set, e.g. it had a set of coaches originally.

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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#9 Posted : 03 September 2019 21:11:03(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: NY, NY
There are weird start sets out there.

I have (in storage, so I do not have images to share at the moment) a "Franz Carl Weber" Start set from the 1950's, looks like a plain jane 3000 with a few freight cars, but the boxcar has the toy store logo, and the flat car had a little wooden crate with the same. Clearly original, but I've never seen or read about another. Sadly it didn't have a box so I have no way to chase origins. But for now it has a special place in the collection for being unique :)
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#10 Posted : 03 September 2019 21:13:19(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: NY, NY
Another thought- why not just ask the seller where it came from, how he knows it was FAO, etc etc? In the auction he guarantees it as original, see if he can back it up
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline Unholz  
#11 Posted : 04 September 2019 08:01:20(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,105
Location: Switzerland
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post

I have (in storage, so I do not have images to share at the moment) a "Franz Carl Weber" Start set from the 1950's, looks like a plain jane 3000 with a few freight cars, but the boxcar has the toy store logo, and the flat car had a little wooden crate with the same. Clearly original, but I've never seen or read about another. Sadly it didn't have a box so I have no way to chase origins.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I assume you mean this set here:
- https://www.bahnbilder.d...st-der-3061-aus-der.html
- https://www.bahnbilder.d...er-der-3061-aus-der.html
Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#12 Posted : 04 September 2019 15:22:37(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: NY, NY
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post

I have (in storage, so I do not have images to share at the moment) a "Franz Carl Weber" Start set from the 1950's, looks like a plain jane 3000 with a few freight cars, but the boxcar has the toy store logo, and the flat car had a little wooden crate with the same. Clearly original, but I've never seen or read about another. Sadly it didn't have a box so I have no way to chase origins.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I assume you mean this set here:
- https://www.bahnbilder.d...st-der-3061-aus-der.html
- https://www.bahnbilder.d...er-der-3061-aus-der.html


Yes! And some good news, I forgot I took a few photos before placing it in storage! See below/attached:

IMG_2298.JPGIMG_2299.JPGIMG_2300.JPG
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
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Offline Henrik Schütz  
#13 Posted : 04 September 2019 17:19:13(UTC)
Henrik Schütz

Sweden   
Joined: 04/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 35
Location: Stockholms Lan, Stockholm
IF, )and that is IF with capital letters) The box is genuine, the number DA815/5 suggest that the box contains a DA800 loco and five freight cars, at least one of them a 315. For instance the ballast car 315 (later number 4610). But clearly the box has been opened and the print date on one of the instruction leaflets are 12:57. Also the 4665 car is totally misplaced. If the set was ordered for the FAO shop in New York exclusively, it would not turn up in the regular catalogue, but in their own marketing for the christmas season. Regards Henrik Schütz







Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#14 Posted : 04 September 2019 17:46:11(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,588
Thanks everyone for your very interesting comments. Who knows the original story behind this but it's fun to investigate. I share similar concerns but also some optimism that it is a rare set of some kind. For fun I researched the F 846 set some more. Check out the label - looks almost exactly the same in terms of style:

UserPostedImage

The set also had instruction books from '53, '55, and '57 and the loco was made in '56 (from the stamp on the wrapping). I wonder what the original price was for the F 846 set was? From the DA set it appears the price was $69.95 ... would be very odd if they had the same price even though the F 800 is a bigger loco.

Paul
Offline kamstutz  
#15 Posted : 04 September 2019 20:19:25(UTC)
kamstutz

United States   
Joined: 27/03/2015(UTC)
Posts: 153
Location: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted by: CCS800KrokHunter3 Go to Quoted Post
... I wonder what the original price was for the F 846 set was? From the DA set it appears the price was $69.95 ... would be very odd if they had the same price even though the F 800 is a bigger loco.
Paul


Paul - Curious where you saw that a set that sold $69.95 ? I was under the impression that the retail prices were pretty much consistent.

My English version 1954 M catalog shows the following prices in US$ printed on the catalog pages themselves.

  • DA 846/3 - $46.50

  • F 846/4 - $85.00


As expected the F800 set had a higher price. (also note that the F846/4 set had 4 passenger cars when the DA846/3 set had only 3)

Only for comparison purposes... My German version 1954 catalog loose price list insert (Preisliste zu Katalog 54) shows the following prices in DM.

  • DA 846/3 - 76. DM

  • F 846/4 - 142 DM


Kurt

Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#16 Posted : 05 September 2019 16:03:31(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,837
Location: NY, NY
Sounds like we need a 1956 or 1957 FAO Schwartz Catalogue(s) to cross check. Although not sure if they would feature full inventory in them
FS + SBB Era 2-5 and Vintage Marklin
Offline CCS800KrokHunter3  
#17 Posted : 05 September 2019 18:01:01(UTC)
CCS800KrokHunter3

United States   
Joined: 03/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,588
I'll have to check my US importer price lists. I know Charles C Merzbach was an importer in the 1940s not sure if he carried into the 1950s as well.

Kurt - I got the $69.95 price from the label - if I'm reading correctly off the label in pencil

Paul
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