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Offline husafreak  
#1 Posted : 19 June 2019 00:41:53(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
Some of us with new Marklin locos utilizing the bell shaped armature motors are unable to stop them with the throttle knobs on our Rokuhan RC02/03 controllers. As soon as the Rokuhan controller is switched to FWD or REV even with the potentiometer (or throttle knob) closed the loco begins moving. It appears that the low voltage output of the Rokuhan lighting feature is propelling the locos at, in some cases, a speed much higher that a crawl. If anyone else has experienced this please chime in.
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 19 June 2019 07:58:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: husafreak Go to Quoted Post
If anyone else has experienced this please chime in.
No personal experience.
But I remember reading that this has happened in H0 gauge before. Some folks were using a small voltage for track occupation detection on an automated layout. Some locos with bell-shaped armatures were causing problems as they were crawling slowly while all other locos simply stopped.

Coreless motors have no cogging torque. Electric tricks that rely on the cogging torque or the higher startup voltage of the standard motors may no longer work.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline mvd71  
#3 Posted : 19 June 2019 09:51:59(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,711
Location: Auckland,
Sounds like the new locos have a better motor with a lower starting voltage. That would be great if you were running marklin controllers. Not sure how you would go about sorting this. Maybe a resistor in series with the motor to increase the required start up voltage? Not sure if that is feasible, but it's an idea.

Offline David Dewar  
#4 Posted : 19 June 2019 13:06:37(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Never heard of them but they do appear to supply a fair amount of stuff. I see the controller can work off batteries which is interesting. They have a help line that might be able to suggest fixing the problem.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline zscalehobo  
#5 Posted : 19 June 2019 19:15:13(UTC)
zscalehobo

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 186
Location: CALIFORNIA, Irvine
What's the issue with turning the 3-position switch from FWD or REV to OFF?

You might try John Cubbin's Ztrains "Shorty Wire" ZTR-200 ... it provides a shifted and narrowed operating range on your RC-0x controllers.

Noch's upcoming panel-mount speed controller 88163 (9/2019) also allows two-range operation ... a coarse range that spans the entire operating range and a finer and lower-level range, specifically for handling new motors AND old motors in the same controller.
Frank Daniels
Owner - z.scale.hobo
A Noch "Top Dealer"
Marklin Dealer and Z Locomotive Service
Irvine, California, USA
www.zscalehobo.com
Offline husafreak  
#6 Posted : 19 June 2019 22:52:36(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
That sounds interesting. We’ll have to try that Frank.
Obviously there is a huge difference in power required to move the different generations of Märklin engines. I will post a video first chance I get but with my only new generation Marklin loco just flipping the switch is very abrupt and totally out of scale. I should point out that I have a Rokuhan Shorty loco, just for testing purposes, and it also moves with the Rokuhan throttle closed, but very slowly, not nearly as fast as my new Marklin 88923. But anyway that probably explains the need for a “shorty wire”.
I will also email Rokuhan, they have been pretty responsive to my emails on other subjects.
Offline ajayrav  
#7 Posted : 20 June 2019 02:09:40(UTC)
ajayrav

United States   
Joined: 07/06/2019(UTC)
Posts: 45
Location: California, San Francisco
Originally Posted by: zscalehobo Go to Quoted Post
What's the issue with turning the 3-position switch from FWD or REV to OFF?

You might try John Cubbin's Ztrains "Shorty Wire" ZTR-200 ... it provides a shifted and narrowed operating range on your RC-0x controllers.

Noch's upcoming panel-mount speed controller 88163 (9/2019) also allows two-range operation ... a coarse range that spans the entire operating range and a finer and lower-level range, specifically for handling new motors AND old motors in the same controller.


The issue with turning the RC02 position to off and then turning it on is that the newer Marklin BR80 0-6-0 tank starts and stops abruptly, rather than smoothly and has a minimum speed not suitable for a shunting loco. Also, the loco is moving at a fairly good clip before the lights even come on. Using a snail speed controller the lights come on at a much lower speed, but the snail speed controller also has a slightly abrupt start and is not as smooth as with the Rokuhan controller. But it certainly has a lower starting speed than the Rokuhan.

John Cubbin's Shorty wire specifically states it is not for Marklin, MTL or AZL locos... Is that not the case?

The Noch controller looks very interesting. Look forward to seeing reviews and if it works as claimed could be a winner.

Thanks,
Ajay
Offline zscalehobo  
#8 Posted : 20 June 2019 18:11:52(UTC)
zscalehobo

United States   
Joined: 22/01/2014(UTC)
Posts: 186
Location: CALIFORNIA, Irvine
Hi Ajay:

I sent a message to John to see if his product can work with non-shorty locos simply as a "range shifter" which is all I think the item is. But in all honesty, it's likely just a resistor that makes the range more coarse so it should be able to work with any locomotive in spite of the warning on the item product pages. It's just that you might, for some locos, then suddenly not be able to feed enough voltage to get them running. In thinking on this a bit more, it likely will not help the zero point on the RC-02 being too high with your specific locomotive.

I have already done a demo of the new controller:
https://www.facebook.com.../videos/581063885560012/
You simply press a button on the controller and it shifts the range from coarse to fine. Again, it is slated for September 2019 release.
Frank Daniels
Owner - z.scale.hobo
A Noch "Top Dealer"
Marklin Dealer and Z Locomotive Service
Irvine, California, USA
www.zscalehobo.com
Offline husafreak  
#9 Posted : 20 June 2019 21:47:21(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
Good video of what may become a great new product. Thanks. It may end up that NOCH, Märklin, and Snail Speed controllers are what we have to use with the new Uber efficient Marklin locos. Or find a way to turn off the constant lighting voltage supplied by the Rokuhan controllers.
Offline husafreak  
#10 Posted : 21 June 2019 19:02:45(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
Back home and playing with my trains again :)
I will now try to upload a few videos. Here is the reply from Rokuhan, note that they were concerned that I might want compensation, I did not ask for that at any time, I just wanted them to see the effect and comment, so it is all good there.

Dear Mr. Eric Schellenberger

Thanks for your reply.

1.Shorty motor car no stop with RC03/RC02 at throttle dial position Min.
This is unexpected result.
We released RC02 on 2011 and RC03 on 2013 based on existing loco spec.
We have no plan to release shorty series at that time.

Shorty has light weight and used same motor unit with existing Z gauge motor cars.
As result, Shorty can be run less electrical current than ordinal Z gauge locos.
And we found some shorty motor chassis doesn't stop at throttle dial position Min.
of RC03/RC02 because of less current consumption.
Therefore we suggest to fix direction switch on center if shorty no stop at Min position.
And we have RC004 controller for shorty.
Sorry for your inconvenience matter and please understand.

2. New Marklin loco no stop at Min potion.
3. Oval track get power only from RC03

We understand your new Marklin loco doesn't stop at Min. position of RC02/RC03.
However do you have same problem with existing old Marklin controller or not ?
Frankly talk, ROKUHAN controller are designed based on ROKUHAN locos.
And we fixed controller spec. as ROKUHAN locos get best performance.
We are not sure new Marklin loco motor spec. and others.
However we can understand new Maklin loco motor has good performance
and required less electrical current.
But we can't have responsibility for RC02/RC03 function with new Marklin loco.
Please understand our position.

So we can send only above reply at this moment.
Please understand and let us know if you have unclear matter.

Best Regards
ROKUHAN support
Offline husafreak  
#11 Posted : 21 June 2019 19:23:46(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
..
Offline husafreak  
#12 Posted : 21 June 2019 19:48:37(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
obviously uploading videos to this forum is not the way to do this...
Offline husafreak  
#13 Posted : 21 June 2019 19:58:03(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
Here is the bell shaped armature loco and RC02, it moves pretty fast throttle off:
https://vimeo.com/343709812
Here is the Rokuhan Shorty which also moves but very slowly with the throttle closed:
https://vimeo.com/343711936
Here is the Rokuhan DB loco. This is the intended operation by Rokuhan. FWD and REV switch turns on the lighting. Throttle moves the loco. A great system!
https://vimeo.com/343712907
Here is an older Marklin loco with a 5 pole armature, this one needs a ton of throttle to get going. That is normal for all my 5 pole Marklins:
https://vimeo.com/343713419
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by husafreak
Offline husafreak  
#14 Posted : 21 June 2019 20:08:45(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
If anyone can tell me the proper way to post videos (preferably from Vimeo) that would be great. I think you should be able to play the video without going to the Vimeo website via links but I don't know how to do that...
Offline husafreak  
#15 Posted : 25 July 2019 04:22:25(UTC)
husafreak

United States   
Joined: 09/04/2019(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: California, Bay Area
I have added two more new locos with bell shaped armatures.
The Marklin 88742 064 Steam Tank is another loco that moves pretty fast even with the Rokuhan controller at its lowest throttle position. You can only have abrupt start or stop and no very slow running using the fwd/rev switch. There's really no reason to ever turn the knob with this one. Just like the 88923 4-6-2 loco shown in the video above.
The Marklin 88227 E94 Crocodile is a new bell shaped armature loco which will sit motionless with the Rokuhan controller at low throttle and the switch in fwd or rev. You have to rotate the throttle knob to 9 or10 o'clock get it going.
Offline stevedenver  
#16 Posted : 19 August 2019 16:34:51(UTC)
stevedenver

United States   
Joined: 19/09/2018(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Colorado, Lakewood
Yes
I have experienced no stop with my 2 new br80s (0-6-0) and rail bus with the rokuhan controller.
And, i have experienced older 5 pole locos going into high speed when sharing the same track with the new motors. Dont really understand why, but it does happen. Almost like tripling the voltage to the 5 pole while the new motors still crawl.
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