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Offline fstrobel  
#1 Posted : 26 February 2019 00:32:13(UTC)
fstrobel

United States   
Joined: 28/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: Seattle, Washington
I am just getting started and I purchased a digital starter pack from Marklin.

It came with the 60116 Digital Connector Box, 60657 Mobile Station, and 66367 36 VA Switched Power Pack.

Also, I finished the planning of the layout I want to build and the total track length (Marklin C Tracks) comes to 712 inches (19.7 yards) in length.

Is what I have sufficient to power the entire layout? If not, what do you recommend I should add?

Many thanks in advanced for your help!

Best,
Frank
Offline PMPeter  
#2 Posted : 26 February 2019 01:12:24(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
The general recommendation is to run a feeder wire to power the track approximately every 6 ft.The easiest way to do that is to run at least a 2 conductor bus cable around your layout and then add your numerous feeder wires to this bus cable at the appropriate locations. I myself had left over 2c#14 and 3C#14 house wire that I ran around the extents of my layout and then drop to various terminal strips from which I then take my track feeders. There are numerous posts on this forum showing different techniques for this bus cabling.

Peter
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Offline fstrobel  
#3 Posted : 26 February 2019 03:33:26(UTC)
fstrobel

United States   
Joined: 28/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: Seattle, Washington
Thank you, Peter.

I tried to locate some threads about bus wiring but could not find any.

Is this close to what you described?

Track Wiring.PNG


Offline PMPeter  
#4 Posted : 26 February 2019 04:08:53(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Yes that's it.

Fabrice has some nice photos of how he is running his bus wiring for his new layout on post #46 of the link below:

Trossingen III

Peter

/* Specifically, have a look at this post -> https://www.marklin-user...vel-and-helix#post583172 Personally, I find such neat and ordered wiring very disturbing.. Scared */

Edited by moderator 26 February 2019 13:19:17(UTC)  | Reason: Added more direct link to the bus wiring post in Fabrice's thread

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Online JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 26 February 2019 12:27:20(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,083
Location: Paris, France
Hi

I think this is excellent advice by Peter.
On a fixed layout, this must be complemented by insulation: a portion of track is fed only by one feeder.
Seems funny but this is to allow detecting where a short circuit is.

In my case this is a 2.5 mm² cable because I use a 100W power supply (60101).

Cheers

Jean
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Offline scraigen  
#6 Posted : 26 February 2019 19:44:55(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 299
Location: Sheffield,
In my case I break up my layout into 5-6 pieces ish and isolate them from each other then run a feed wire back to my console area. This has the benefit later of being able to switch sections off to easily track down where shorts are coming from. I did this because initially I was going to run both digital and analogue locos. The above advice re bus wires is very simple - simple being good!!!
Must build something
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Offline fstrobel  
#7 Posted : 26 February 2019 23:54:09(UTC)
fstrobel

United States   
Joined: 28/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: Seattle, Washington
Originally Posted by: scraigen Go to Quoted Post
In my case I break up my layout into 5-6 pieces ish and isolate them from each other then run a feed wire back to my console area. This has the benefit later of being able to switch sections off to easily track down where shorts are coming from. I did this because initially I was going to run both digital and analogue locos. The above advice re bus wires is very simple - simple being good!!!


Yes, this is great advice. I have now segmented my layout into sections that will be isolated from each other and I am planning on running a bus on the underside of the table.

Offline TEEWolf  
#8 Posted : 27 February 2019 04:24:58(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: fstrobel Go to Quoted Post

Yes, this is great advice. I have now segmented my layout into sections that will be isolated from each other and I am planning on running a bus on the underside of the table.



19,7 yards are about 18 meters. I doubt it that a track box 60116 will all feed this in a sufficient way. A track box brings a maximum of 1,9 A. No chance to change this. If you separate your layout into isolated sections, how will you feed these single sections with power?

As @Jean in post #5 stated, he uses a 100 W power supply, which brings 5 A. I do the same at my layout. But 2,5 mm² cross section for the cable is too much. It contains the risk, a shortage does not switch of the power from your layout. This may cause a cable or layout burning. First I used 1,5 mm² and my friends at the MIST (= Märklin Insider StammTisch) recommended not to do it, because it still is too risky. Now I changed to 0,75 mm². The track box came with a profile of 0,19 mm². Enough for the track box and this is the reason why the track box is always limited to 1,9 A.

I have CS 3+ and Märklin gives the instruction to use minimum 0,5 mm² for any cable from a CS 3 to the layout power feeding. A CS 3 always brings a minimum of 3 A.
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Offline fstrobel  
#9 Posted : 27 February 2019 05:08:24(UTC)
fstrobel

United States   
Joined: 28/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: Seattle, Washington
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fstrobel Go to Quoted Post

Yes, this is great advice. I have now segmented my layout into sections that will be isolated from each other and I am planning on running a bus on the underside of the table.


19,7 yards are about 18 meters. I doubt it that a track box 60116 will all feed this in a sufficient way. A track box brings a maximum of 1,9 A. No chance to change this. If you separate your layout into isolated sections, how will you feed these single sections with power?


Vielen Dank! Ich bin Schwabe, aber schon seit 26 Jahren in den USA.

Continuing in English for the benefit of others: a CS 3 is not in my budget at this point. Assuming that I would like to keep my layout as is (19.7 yards), what do you recommend I should do? Is there a more powerful supply that works with my Mobile Station?
Offline scraigen  
#10 Posted : 27 February 2019 08:56:58(UTC)
scraigen


Joined: 29/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 299
Location: Sheffield,
Don’t worry about the size of the layout, and the power of the track box, what matters is how many locos + accessories you’re trying to run from that box. The feed wires are required as the resistance due to track joints will increase the further away from the track box connection which could lead to significant loss of power and or erratic behaviour in the decoder. CS3 is not required.
Must build something
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Offline PMPeter  
#11 Posted : 27 February 2019 16:26:00(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
I wouldn't worry too much about 2.5 mm2 bus wire being too large. As I said in a previous post this is basically what I am doing by using North American 14 AWG house wire for my bus. That is the whole purpose of the bus to distribute the power around the layout with the least amount of voltage drop. The smaller the wire gauge the more the voltage drop.

However, you then need to drop down the wire size to the track using either the available Maerklin track feeder wires or their equivalent if you plan on making your own. These drop wires are then the limitation of the current carrying capacity, not the bus wires.

Peter
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Offline fstrobel  
#12 Posted : 27 February 2019 16:45:48(UTC)
fstrobel

United States   
Joined: 28/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: Seattle, Washington
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
I wouldn't worry too much about 2.5 mm2 bus wire being too large. As I said in a previous post this is basically what I am doing by using North American 14 AWG house wire for my bus. That is the whole purpose of the bus to distribute the power around the layout with the least amount of voltage drop. The smaller the wire gauge the more the voltage drop.

However, you then need to drop down the wire size to the track using either the available Maerklin track feeder wires or their equivalent if you plan on making your own. These drop wires are then the limitation of the current carrying capacity, not the bus wires.

Peter


Thank you, Peter.

So, after spending way too much time on the Internet looking into this, here is my current plan:
* the cables from the 60116 digital connector box will feed into the first terminal strip block underneath my table
* from that terminal strip block, I will have a 14 AWG bus going around the table (stranded copper wire)
* this bus will feed multiple strip blocks
* from those strip blocks, I will have 18 AWG feeder cables (with spade connectors soldered to the ends) go to the tracks
* my layout now has 12 sections (none longer than 6 feet) that are separated by center rail insulators

Does this sound like a solid plan for now?

I know that if I ever end up running more trains or connect other elements to the layout that require power (such as powered turn-outs, signals, etc.), that I might have to add a Central Station.

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Offline Purellum  
#13 Posted : 27 February 2019 17:07:25(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
19,7 yards are about 18 meters. I doubt it that a track box 60116 will all feed this in a sufficient way. A track box brings a maximum of 1,9 A.


Sorry; but this is just nonsense, and we've told you before Blink

You can have thousands of meters ( Sorry, YARDS BigGrin ) of track, powered by a 60116 track box,
you just have to run proper wires under the layout.

0,75mm2 will be more than enough for the first 50 - 100 meters of layout, if the layout gets bigger than that, bigger wires might be needed.

The 1,9A limit on the track box is only relevant for power consumption, that is ( funny enough ) how many Amperes you are using.

If you make the smallest possible circle, using 12 pieces of 24130 curved track,
your 60116 can run out of power if you try to run 10 locomotives at the same time.

On the other hand, you can run a locomotive around the Earth at Equator, powered by a 60116,
as long as the wires feeding the tracks are big enough. And in this case, the wires need to be very big.

UserPostedImage

Per. ( Electrician par excellence BigGrin )

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Purellum  
#14 Posted : 27 February 2019 17:10:21(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: fstrobel Go to Quoted Post
So, after spending way too much time on the Internet looking into this, here is my current plan:


Pun intended ?? LOL

Per.

Cool

If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline PMPeter  
#15 Posted : 27 February 2019 18:05:59(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: fstrobel Go to Quoted Post
Thank you, Peter.

So, after spending way too much time on the Internet looking into this, here is my current plan:
* the cables from the 60116 digital connector box will feed into the first terminal strip block underneath my table
* from that terminal strip block, I will have a 14 AWG bus going around the table (stranded copper wire)
* this bus will feed multiple strip blocks
* from those strip blocks, I will have 18 AWG feeder cables (with spade connectors soldered to the ends) go to the tracks
* my layout now has 12 sections (none longer than 6 feet) that are separated by center rail insulators

Does this sound like a solid plan for now?

I know that if I ever end up running more trains or connect other elements to the layout that require power (such as powered turn-outs, signals, etc.), that I might have to add a Central Station.




Sounds like an excellent plan.

Peter
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Offline TEEWolf  
#16 Posted : 27 February 2019 19:45:09(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: fstrobel Go to Quoted Post

Vielen Dank! Ich bin Schwabe, aber schon seit 26 Jahren in den USA.

Continuing in English for the benefit of others: a CS 3 is not in my budget at this point. Assuming that I would like to keep my layout as is (19.7 yards), what do you recommend I should do? Is there a more powerful supply that works with my Mobile Station?


Thank you, so you still shall be able to read German.BigGrin

Seriously, for you it is valuable to buy the 2nd Märklin book "(Wieder-) Einstieg in die Märklin Modellbahn" art.# 03070. This is as well for beginner as relauncher very good, but it is only in German language available. In the opposite to the CS 3 book art #03082 (German) #03092 (English). Also surf always on the German website of Märklin, because they do offer much more information as on the English one. It is a pity, because plenty of our only English speaking friends do not get informed about important issues and publications from Märklin, done only in German..

Indeed a CS 3 is not necessary, I only wrote it for comparison and information purposes for a beginner. The more far away you are from the current feeding point, the less power do you have. Märklin recommends a current feeding point every 2 meters. For a starter with one or two locos it will be enough. When your locos do not run very well any longer, than it is time to get more current into the layout. Then it is time for a booster or CS 3. But again you shall know, that a CS 3 has already a booster included. Again, buy this M-book. It is very helpful. and at the end it gives you a superb overview about all digital devices too. The actual ones as well as the old ones and which are still usable today. In my opinion very helpful.

Also very helpful (but only in German available) is this website from a Swiss MRR, "Rainers Modellbahn". He gives you very good answers for almost every MRR theme and much more like about electricity or soldering.

https://www.stayathome.ch/

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Offline Purellum  
#17 Posted : 27 February 2019 20:03:47(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
The more far away you are from the current feeding point, the less power do you have. Märklin recommends a current feeding point every 2 meters. For a starter with one or two locos it will be enough. When your locos do not run very well any longer, than it is time to get more current into the layout. Then it is time for a booster or CS 3.


You are again mixing things up, by mixing current feeding points with current consumption. Blink

No matter how many boosters you have, you can't feed more current into a circuit than is being used. ( Period - end of story )

Per.

Cool




If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
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Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 27 February 2019 21:20:57(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: fstrobel Go to Quoted Post

So, after spending way too much time on the Internet looking into this, here is my current plan:
* the cables from the 60116 digital connector box will feed into the first terminal strip block underneath my table
* from that terminal strip block, I will have a 14 AWG bus going around the table (stranded copper wire)
* this bus will feed multiple strip blocks
* from those strip blocks, I will have 18 AWG feeder cables (with spade connectors soldered to the ends) go to the tracks
* my layout now has 12 sections (none longer than 6 feet) that are separated by center rail insulators

Does this sound like a solid plan for now?

I know that if I ever end up running more trains or connect other elements to the layout that require power (such as powered turn-outs, signals, etc.), that I might have to add a Central Station.



If you plan on running multiple trains on a single track loop, your going to need a way to sense positions. This is getting into the future complexities of signals, and traffic control, but if your already putting breaks in the center conductor, and you envision not pulling up the layout as you grow into computer controlled or CS controlled layout in the future, you might want to also plan in your S88 sensing sections and thus build in the isolation of an outside rail isolation for detection - you can just connect them all to a ground bus that attaches to the other rails's ground bus contacts for now. Saves you pulling up all the track again later.

But of course, if its likely you will redo the layout one or more times, then its way to early to worry about such things, given as its not something you can use with a MS controller.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline TEEWolf  
#19 Posted : 01 March 2019 03:36:02(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
@fstrobel

Märklin issued these "Security specifications for the construction and operation of various sizes of model railways" last year.

https://www.maerklin.de/.../Sicherheits-Vorgabe.pdf

Strange to me, this information is published in various languages, but not in English.

https://www.maerklin.de/...echnische-informationen/
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Offline fstrobel  
#20 Posted : 01 March 2019 06:16:49(UTC)
fstrobel

United States   
Joined: 28/01/2019(UTC)
Posts: 29
Location: Seattle, Washington
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
@fstrobel

Märklin issued these "Security specifications for the construction and operation of various sizes of model railways" last year.

https://www.maerklin.de/.../Sicherheits-Vorgabe.pdf

Strange to me, this information is published in various languages, but not in English.

https://www.maerklin.de/...echnische-informationen/


Vielen Dank fuer den Link zu den Sicherheitshinweisen!

Offline Minok  
#21 Posted : 01 March 2019 20:22:22(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
@fstrobel

Märklin issued these "Security specifications for the construction and operation of various sizes of model railways" last year.

https://www.maerklin.de/.../Sicherheits-Vorgabe.pdf

Strange to me, this information is published in various languages, but not in English.

https://www.maerklin.de/...echnische-informationen/


They do have it in english, just hidden away; you get the "Englisch" version when you select English as the language of the page:
https://www.maerklin.de/...e/technical-information/
Capture.PNG
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline TEEWolf  
#22 Posted : 02 March 2019 00:29:59(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

They do have it in english, just hidden away; you get the "Englisch" version when you select English as the language of the page:
https://www.maerklin.de/...e/technical-information/


Thank you for this hint. Very strange Märklin!Confused Next time they only publish at their specific country side?Cursing
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