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Offline rrf  
#1 Posted : 01 February 2019 22:53:38(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 279
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Hello,

I am setting up a decoder cluster with a Universal Power Supply (60822) fed by a 66365 30VA / 110 volt power supply. Initially I am connecting one M83 and one M84. In the future I expect to add more decoders to the cluster. Digital control feeds (Red / B & Brown / O) from the CS3+ are connected to the 60822 power supply. Neither the M83 or M84 have digital control feeds.

The M83 is set for MM protocol address range 1 thru 4. Two turnouts are connected (including their LEDs) to positions 1 and 2. The M84 is set for MM protocol address range 5 thru 8. Positions 1 and 2 (address 5 & 6) are setup to power two isolated track sections. Once I get things working, I intend to add 74371 Hobby signals. Beside a single S88, these are the only devices connected to my CS3+.

M83_M84.jpg

I started with the M83 connected to the 60822 power supply. It controlled the switches just fine. When I connected the M84 to the M83, the M84 did not work and the M83 stopped working. Both decoders had the single blinking red LED that supposedly indicates they are communicating with the CS3 correctly. Note: between each configuration change I shutdown the CS3 and removed wall power from the layout.

Next, I removed the M83 and connected the M84 to the 60822 power supply. The M84 now worked as expected, controlling power to the two isolated track section. So I reconnected the M83 to the cluster by adding it to the end of M84 (as shown in the image above). Again both stopped working. The two decoder status LEDs were blinking.

The next test was to remove one of the decoders from the cluster and feed it directly from the CS3. Now both the M83 and M84 worked together as expected. I tried both permutations (M83 direct with M84 connected to the 60822 & M84 direct with M83 connected to the 60822). Both permutation works fine. It's only when I connect both to the 60822 power supply that things stop working.

Any help and/or advice in solving this problem will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Edited by user 02 February 2019 16:01:58(UTC)  | Reason: Issue Solved :-)

Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
Offline Donb  
#2 Posted : 01 February 2019 23:29:41(UTC)
Donb

Canada   
Joined: 03/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 145
Location: Fraser Valley
HI again Rob,

Per the manual for the 60822:

"The digital signal from the track (B/0) must be supplied at
the first m83/m84 connected to the system."
Per the drawing in the manual, you do not connect track power to the 60822.

Hope this helps,

Don
Best Regards,
Don
___________________________________________________________________________________
Commander , Intellibox 2, MS2, C track
Offline rrf  
#3 Posted : 02 February 2019 15:42:58(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 279
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Originally Posted by: Donb Go to Quoted Post
HI again Rob,

Per the manual for the 60822:

"The digital signal from the track (B/0) must be supplied at
the first m83/m84 connected to the system."
Per the drawing in the manual, you do not connect track power to the 60822.

Hope this helps,

Don

Hello,

First, Thank you Don! You were 100% correct. I made the suggested change and now everything works as intended. Now here's the crazy part:

I Read The "F"ing Manual, configured the Universal Power Supply as instructed and it was wrong!Sad

There are apparently at least two versions of the 60822 manual out there! I received what I assume to be an older version with my Universal Power Supply. There is also newer version that Don read and that can be found on the Märklin web site. Below are comparisons between the two.

Old page six:
60822_Manual_old_page_6.jpg
New page six:
60822_Manual_new_page_6.JPG
Old page seven:
60822_Manual_old_page_7.jpg
New page seven:
60822_Manual_new_page_7.JPG

As one can clearly see the old manual that shipped with my 60822 is wrong! It instructed me me to connect the digital signal to the 60822. The newer manual states that these two terminals on the 60822 are "Currently not used" and that I must connect the digital signal to the first M83/M84 decoder in the cluster.

I can only assume that the older manual shows how the designers wanted the 60822 to work and that the newer version reflects what had to be done to get the Universal Power Supply to work with more than one M83/M84 decoder. I would love to hear the story behind this anomaly if anyone actually knows it.
Wink
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by rrf
Online xxup  
#4 Posted : 02 February 2019 23:08:06(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,062
Location: Australia
What is the advantage of using a 60822? Why not just run the wires to the m83 and m84 etc?
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline rrf  
#5 Posted : 03 February 2019 00:36:16(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 279
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
What is the advantage of using a 60822? Why not just run the wires to the m83 and m84 etc?

Hello xxup,

The 60822 provides independent power for the decoders and downstream devices, in lieu of using power from the track. The reason I decided to give this configuration a try was that I wanted to minimize the wiring for my turnout LEDs and let them steal power from the M83 decoder connection. Also I didn't want the 74371 Hobby signals that I am connecting to the M84 decoder to draw power from the track. An unplanned for but in my mind desirable side affect is that my turnout and signal LEDs say lit when I hit stop on my CS3 and remove power from the track.

Now is there any real benefit to this configuration and was it truly worth the cost of the 60822 and companion 66367 switched mode power pack, is a question I cannot answer!
BigGrin

Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by rrf
Online xxup  
#6 Posted : 03 February 2019 00:42:29(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,062
Location: Australia
Ah.. I see now.. I use a booster and place all the signals and switches (anything not a loco) on that power supply.. I guess your approach is a cheaper solution..
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline rrf  
#7 Posted : 03 February 2019 12:06:45(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 279
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Ah.. I see now.. I use a booster and place all the signals and switches (anything not a loco) on that power supply.. I guess your approach is a cheaper solution..

Hello again Adrian,

I would argue that while the 60822 may be less expensive than a booster solution on a small layout, there will be a "cross over" point with a large layout where the cost of multiple Universal Power Supply's and their companion Power Packs exceeds that of a dedicated booster circuit.

Peter (forum UID clapcott) pointed out an additional benefit in the current 60822 topic that I was not aware of.

https://www.marklin-users.net/fo...-supply-60822#post585239

"the real reason you would want to use external power for the m84 is so that they retain their state and for the m83, in on / off mode, to keep the port on. e.g should you have a track short or manually press Stop."

Though he also states one can apply power directly to the M83's and M84s without a Universal Power Supply unit. While that may be true, I now have enough invested in digital toys, solenoids and signals that I'm not going to risk going against Märklin's design to save on the cost of a few 60822s.

Peter also mentions a thought that I have had: extending power and the digital signal from one cluster of Decoders to a second, using a DB9 extension cable. Again this is not recommended by the manufacturer but it is more in the realm of "user mods" that I might be comfortable with.

Regards,
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by rrf
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