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Offline dickinsonj  
#1 Posted : 17 January 2019 15:33:00(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
I have been using pairs of 24711 and 24712 turnouts for many years and have had very few problems with them. A couple of years ago I decided to replace my old and brittle C track and as part of that upgrade I bought new turnouts. But I can not get some of the new 24711/24712 turnouts to stop shorting out when sliders pass over them. They have had this problem to some extent but I always assumed it was an issue with the rolling stock and not the turnout.

I have read a lot of threads here on similar problems but nothing is quite what I am seeing. The shorts don't occur when the pukos are too close to to the rails and a wheel bridges the gap. My problem is when the slider crosses a rail and briefly touches it, which creates a spark and in some cases stops the loco or even creates an overload situation for my CS2. In most cases momentum carries my train past that point, so after a brief pause the loco starts again, just to do it all over again if I am changing more than one line at a time.

I have gone through all of the normal checks and adjusted the puko position but so far I have not had much success. When the slider gets to the first puko past the rail it is crossing it passes beside it rather than landing on top. On some turnouts this happens for the first two pukos before things go back to normal. I have bent the pukos as far as possible but the problem still occurs and I am out of ideas. One of my worst trains for this problem is new with only a few hours of operation and I don't think the loco or coach are causing this.

I have checked the wheel spacing on my affected models but it is fine. In the past it was just a few of my locos and coaches that had this problem but with what I am currently running it is almost everything doing this. My new D12 coach set with a slider on the postal coach and the E19.1 pulling it short/stop crossing these turnout whether going straight or taking the turnout. When looking closely you can see the burn marks on the rails where the slider shorts, so this happens often, even when it does not cause obvious shorting or sparks.

Unless someone has some good ideas on this problem I see basically two choices. Replace the 12 turnouts which have this problem, which will be a lot of work and won’t be cheap or just pack away my trains, since I don’t do shelf queens and if I can’t run my trains I don’t really see the point of having them. I have dealt with lots of details and issues over the years but this is a game changer and making me question keeping my trains.

Thanks in advance for any ideas on how I might proceed.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline David Dewar  
#2 Posted : 17 January 2019 15:56:00(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
To have 12 turnouts with the same problem does appear odd. Does this happen with all your locos. Coaches can be bad for this as I have experienced in the past. Have you tried a shorter slider on your locos or coaches.

I presume this did not happen with your old turnouts with you have replaced and can you compare the new with the old to see what the difference is.

If there is a fault with the turnouts they will be replaced under warranty but all 12 does seem very unusual.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#3 Posted : 17 January 2019 15:58:51(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Check that the pukos have been pushed fully home from the bottom when fitted. There is a possibility that they haven't gone that last 0.1mm which means the pick up shoe doesn't ride quite high enough over the rail.

Offline dickinsonj  
#4 Posted : 17 January 2019 17:18:14(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
To have 12 turnouts with the same problem does appear odd.


I agree David and that makes me wonder just what is really going on.

At this time I only have five locos running as my layout comes out of dormancy, so next up is to verify that this problem is happening with all five of them. So far I have been testing with two to limit any potential decoder damage and they are both new this year and both have this issue. In the past the worst offenders were my American prototype trains and I was willing to blame the problem on the rolling stock and just make a mental note to sort this out eventually. Once I saw that the problem was more widespread this year I decided that it was more likely to be the turnouts than the rolling stock, but I could well be wrong on that. A little light flashing from my coaches when passing through turnouts does not bother me, but the whole layout shorting out and stopping is not acceptable.

My layout gets built and torn down each year and so far I have been running just five trains on five mainlines with no visible problems. Moving rolling stock around 10 days ago to set up my yard was when I first noticed that this problem is worse than it has been in the past. I will also check to see if the problem happens with the old turnouts which never caused me any problems before the plastic started to break. These turnouts were purchased in 2016 and are out of warranty and I wonder if there were quality control issues with them. I have had other Györ produced products from that period which were troublesome, so they may just be defective from the factory.

I will post again when I have the time to do some more investigating and thanks for the ideas!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#5 Posted : 17 January 2019 17:30:40(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Check that the pukos have been pushed fully home from the bottom when fitted. There is a possibility that they haven't gone that last 0.1mm which means the pick up shoe doesn't ride quite high enough over the rail.



Good suggestion Alan, but that was the first thing I tested.

Slowly pushing the coach from the D12 set through the turnouts tells me that the slider is missing the first couple of pukos. It is harder to see exactly what is happening with the locos but the they show the same symptoms as the coaches. If the sliders landed on the top of them, the pukos are high enough to keep the slider off of the track. I have moved the pukos closer to the rails which is doable because no wheels ever pass between those pukos and the track, but I am at the limit of that adjustment.

I have also suspected the slider/bogie as a cause and if it was just a few items I would deal with them later. The slider on the D12 coach projects behind the second axle in the bogie and I wonder if that makes this problem worse. But since my new E19.1 has the same problem I don't think that is really the cause. As I told David I will be verifying that this problem happens with more locos before tearing things apart and I will let you know.

One plus is that this is making it much easier for me to ignore the 2019 new items, since I don't want to get a lot of pretty new rolling stock if I have nowhere to run it!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#6 Posted : 17 January 2019 19:46:38(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
A brief update.

I worked in some time today to test more locos and there are issues with all of the ones I am currently running. Namely my E19.1, Gt 2x 4/4, VT 08.5, VT 11.5 and my class 193 electric. Three of these are virtually new and the others have never shown this problem in the past.

My best current guess is that in my attempts to "fix" this problem I have royally screwed up these turnouts. As we always say in software - User Error! BigGrin

I guess I am going to have to replace these and keep my fat fingers off of the new ones. When I ran M track I often had to adjust the pukos in the turnouts to get things working properly but maybe that is not such a good idea with C track.

I will post again when I have more info, probably after I obtain some replacement turnouts. I have too many beautiful trains to let a few hundred euros of turnouts shut me down. Cool

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 17 January 2019 20:39:52(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Jim

Sorry to hear your troubles with the slim straight switches. I have only two of them and they never gave me a problem (sorry I know it is not helping).
The only thing I had to do on a few C track switches is to bend the "puckos" (a little only!) away from the rail when they are too close and give shorts with passing wheels.
Of course manufacturing tolerances may fluctuate over the years.

In this kind of situation you have to remove the problematic switch and inspect the switch with a strong magnifier when a loco is pushed on it near the shorting point. By having the loco back and forth but also laterally-while power on- (there shouldn't be any shorts normally) and it is much easier to locate the problem. When this happened to me I often discovered "surprises" (different things from what I thought).

In some cases, sliders with a recess / hole may create a problem by landing on the rail because the puko that was supposed to the slider up, was in the middle of the recess.

Possible cures
In Märklin operation, it may be possible to insulate the "inner" rails on those sleeks switches(just before the frog so a passing slider is not creating problems).

Another possibility is to force a very little the "pukos" out (with a soldering iron) near the inner rail the slider has to jump. Were needed for the slider to jump over the rails near the frogs by only 2/10th of a mm.

Another possibility is that your sliders are not horizontal but looking sideways and so-when jumping over the "frog rail" it may come in contact with it (even though pukos are correctly positionned.
Cheers

Jean
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Offline David Dewar  
#8 Posted : 17 January 2019 21:09:19(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Just a thought but before you buy another twelve just by one and see how it works. Or do you have anybody near you who has a similar turn out where you could try your locos.
Also if bought from a local dealer you could ask him to test the turnout for you ...if he can.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#9 Posted : 17 January 2019 22:31:21(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jim

Sorry to hear your troubles with the slim straight switches. I have only two of them and they never gave me a problem (sorry I know it is not helping).
The only thing I had to do on a few C track switches is to bend the "puckos" (a little only!) away from the rail when they are too close and give shorts with passing wheels.
...

Another possibility is that your sliders are not horizontal but looking sideways and so-when jumping over the "frog rail" it may come in contact with it even though pukos are correctly positioned.
Cheers

Jean


Thanks for the ideas Jean,

The devil is in the details with these turnouts and my attempts to make them work better apparently only made things worse. I think that the "only bending pukos a little" is excellent advice and I am sure that I was bending them too much, first one way and then the other. I did check the sliders, since if they are not aligned properly they could certainly make this situation worse, but they all appear to be fine.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#10 Posted : 17 January 2019 22:57:21(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Just a thought but before you buy another twelve just by one and see how it works. Or do you have anybody near you who has a similar turn out where you could try your locos.
Also if bought from a local dealer you could ask him to test the turnout for you ...if he can.


I wish that I had a local dealer David but all of my Märklin equipement comes from thousands of miles away these days. When the last local dealer closed I stopped buying Märklin trains for several years, but that didn't last and this forum has allowed me to do most of my own maintenance. Without that help though I don't think that I could handle doing my own repairs, and you guys have saved me many times! Cool

I think I have definitely found the culprit in this crime and I now believe that it was me! I worked on the six right hand turnouts and now all of them are having even more issues with sliders. I think my biggest mistake was attempting to elevate the pukos, which just made everything worse. I checked the left hand turnouts and only one is causing me problems - and just by a coincidence it is the one that I also worked on. I have been fiddling with this rather than running trains for over a week and I am ready to move along now. I will certainly not be starting a 3-rail turnout repair service! BigGrin

So I want to get this resolved as quickly as possible and I decided to order replacements. I only need a total of 7 turnouts and since I will be moving the decoders, motors and lanterns from the old ones, the cost was not nearly what I had feared. My usual dealer has been trying to get me replacement 24712 turnouts for months now but he has yet to receive any. I ordered my replacements from another dealer where I will pay a bit more because he is in Canada but he has them in stock and sometime next week I should be ready to switch them out.

I will be particularly interested in seeing how that beautiful D12 postal car handles the new turnouts and also the E19.1, both of which were some of the worst offenders. I will also be interested to see if the new turnouts handle my American streamliners better than the current ones, which have always had some issues with those trains. If they still have problems I will look at the sliders and not mess with my new and hopefully correct turnouts.

Those are good ideas on ways to save money BTW, but there are not many Märklin collectors in my area, so I am going to take the radical replacement approach and hope that things go back to working properly. Stay tuned for updates. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline applor  
#11 Posted : 17 January 2019 23:08:38(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
If its the slider, it is possibly the same issue I reported here:

https://www.marklin-user...it-on-slender-K-switches

While that is with K track, no doubt the same thing can happen on C track slender switches.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline David Dewar  
#12 Posted : 17 January 2019 23:27:13(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Glad to hear you have solved the problem Jim. Would it be worth ordering from a German dealer or is the postal charged too high and customs duty.

Marklin might be cheaper from Germany.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline dickinsonj  
#13 Posted : 18 January 2019 01:29:49(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Glad to hear you have solved the problem Jim. Would it be worth ordering from a German dealer or is the postal charged too high and customs duty.

Marklin might be cheaper from Germany.

David


Yeah - I solved it using the shotgun approach. BigGrin

I only have my trains running about 3-4 months a year and I am burning weeks fiddling with pukos when most of my stuff has never escaped the storage boxes yet.

I can get better prices and reasonable shipping from German dealers and I have bought a number of items going that route. Most dealers subtract the VAT and that makes the attractive prices even better in reality. But my shipping charges on returns can end up costing half or more of the cost of the original item, so it is a crap shoot as to whether you will save or not. I don't like to badger Märklin on QC but I have had a good number of issues over the last couple of years and that makes return costs more relevant to me.

Luckily the total was not bad on these - about $220 USD or at today's rate about 193€. I find that the expensive mistakes are keener in my memory and better lessons learned. Things like the rule to never rail anything with the layout power on, which I learned when I blew the decoder in a favorite steamer while being stupid. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#14 Posted : 18 January 2019 01:41:08(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
If its the slider, it is possibly the same issue I reported here:

https://www.marklin-user...it-on-slender-K-switches

While that is with K track, no doubt the same thing can happen on C track slender switches.


Yes - that is exactly what is going on with my C track switches also. In my case even the solid sliders have the shorting but now that you mention it, my E19.1 is the absolute worst and it is the only one with depressed center slider. I guess I was too trusting that Märklin had this stuff sorted out by now.

I never saw anything that indicated what people were doing about that in any of the related threads, although a lot of people asked. I have to admit that so far sliders have been something which were simply there from my POV and at least worked when new. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#15 Posted : 19 January 2019 16:22:12(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
I do have a little more additional information on this problem. A friend searched Stummi and other German forums for this problem and it turns out that the E18/E19 locos are very likely to have issues with these turnouts. So unfortunately I decided to start my testing with a loco which was almost sure to fail in this case and the more I messed with the turnouts the worse it all got.

If that pretty E19.1 does not work on the new turnouts I might have to consider trying to sell it, since I have 20 of these turnouts and if it can't handle them I probably need to try to find it a new home. I have to admit that I must have been trusting Märklin too much because I expected a new loco just produced last year to actually work properly with their own turnouts.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline JohnjeanB  
#16 Posted : 19 January 2019 18:19:16(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Jim

Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post


If that pretty E19.1 does not work on the new turnouts I might have to consider trying to sell it, since I have 20 of these turnouts and if it can't handle them I probably need to try to find it a new home. I have to admit that I must have been trusting Märklin too much because I expected a new loco just produced last year to actually work properly with their own turnouts.


Before getting rid of your beautifull E19, I suggest you to modify the slider:
- find a straight slider of the same dimension / length as the one on your loco
- extract -on the "recessed" slider -the pick-up sole and replace it with the straight sole of the straight slider
All this trouble because of the "blasted screw hole"BigGrin

On my E19 (3769) the slider with recess is 50mm long and it is very likely your can find a straight slider of the same length
Cheers

Jean
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Offline dickinsonj  
#17 Posted : 19 January 2019 19:09:38(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Jim

Before getting rid of your beautiful E19, I suggest you to modify the slider:
- find a straight slider of the same dimension / length as the one on your loco
- extract -on the "recessed" slider -the pick-up sole and replace it with the straight sole of the straight slider
All this trouble because of the "blasted screw hole"BigGrin

On my E19 (3769) the slider with recess is 50mm long and it is very likely your can find a straight slider of the same length
Cheers

Jean


I agree that before I give up on this loco, that would be worth a try Jean.

The slider on my E19, also with the recess, is indeed 50mm long. I will talk to my dealer and see if he knows what I might buy to supply a a 50mm slider for this loco. I assume that Märklin is just using the old dies for models which have this kind of slider to save the cost of updating them. Unfortunately I don't think that there is really anything "wrong" with this loco, but that it was designed to be broken right from the factory with that stupid recess for the screw hole. Oddly I have other locos with that type of slider which work just fine with the slim turnouts, so it must be some magic combination of the slider and design of this model causing its poor running.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline applor  
#18 Posted : 20 January 2019 08:53:10(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
A lot of the other manufacturer sliders can replace the Markln one - just the contact part is all you need to replace. They use the same groove method

As per my post I used a Brawa slider but theres also Liliput etc. just need the same length.

Much cheaper than replacing the loco.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline river6109  
#19 Posted : 20 January 2019 09:24:10(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I don't think there is any valid reason for you to sell your BR 19 just because of the slider, you can either replace it with a Roco slider or solder the hole and file it afterwards smooth.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline dickinsonj  
#20 Posted : 20 January 2019 15:14:47(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I don't think there is any valid reason for you to sell your BR 19 just because of the slider, you can either replace it with a Roco slider or solder the hole and file it afterwards smooth.

John


Yes - I would only sell it if I can't get it working properly.

It would be cool to 3D print a plug for that hole which would make the bottom of the slider smooth but which could be removed when needed. It is more likely that I will try to find a 50mm slider from another company and swap it for the Märklin one. Right now I don't know exactly what other slider I need but hopefully I will figure it out soon.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#21 Posted : 20 January 2019 15:16:43(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
A lot of the other manufacturer sliders can replace the Markln one - just the contact part is all you need to replace. They use the same groove method

As per my post I used a Brawa slider but theres also Liliput etc. just need the same length.

Much cheaper than replacing the loco.


I will look into the Brawa and Lilliput sliders as a substitute. I need to contact a couple of my online dealers and see what I can find.

Thanks for the ideas!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline TEEWolf  
#22 Posted : 20 January 2019 18:28:59(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
I don't think there is any valid reason for you to sell your BR 19 just because of the slider, you can either replace it with a Roco slider or solder the hole and file it afterwards smooth.

John


Indeed, in the German communities it was reported they solved the problem by using the Roco slider. People only were complaining about the expensive price for this slider (I do not know the price) and it must be a real fiddle work to change it. Also it shall be important to have a completely plain slider without any bendings in the contact side. Especially no whole in it, as you find it at Märklin ones sometimes to fix through the whole the slider at the machine by a screw.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#23 Posted : 11 April 2019 03:47:34(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
I wanted to update this thread because the problem I am having with system shorts in the slim turnouts does appear to caused by some of my sliders and not the turnouts.

I went down the wrong debugging path and blamed the turnouts because the problem was happening with so many items, including some new and expensive locos. I reasoned (incorrectly) that Märklin would not ship new sliders which did not work correctly with their own turnouts.

I put a new slider on a coach as part of adding lighting and immediately that coach starting shorting my track current. I could stop it at the right spot and just shut down my system until it was moved, so obviously the slider was at fault. It does have the infamous hole in it but that was not the cause, at least not on my C track turnouts. The problem is that many sliders are not flat, but rather slightly bent away from the pukos in the middle. That lets the slider drop just enough to make contact with the crossing rails when passing through a turnout.

So far I have been able to fix all of them simply by bending the slider to make it flat. If the slider has some hours on it the wear pattern from the pukos shows the problem quite clearly.
Slider.jpg

It was an expensive lesson learned, but hopefully my experience can help others avoid destroying perfectly good turnouts to fix a problem which is actually caused by warped sliders. ThumpUp
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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