Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline amartinezv  
#1 Posted : 20 December 2018 11:16:35(UTC)
amartinezv

Spain   
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 229
Location: Madrid,
Hello, good morning,

Lately I'm reading both in the marklin insider and in the marklin magazin that in digital with two cables you do everything. And while it is true that with digital technology, you can easily do things that in analog would be true nightmares and that the wiring in a digital model is simplified compared to its analog equivalent, in digital you need more than two cables.

Here you have one of the most complex parts of my layout due to the amount of turnouts and signals there are

20181219_124551.jpg

And here you have two photos of the lower part of the board with the existing wiring, obviously they are more than two cables.

20181217_102407.jpg20181217_102422.jpg

Best regards
Antonio Martínez
marklin, IB, era 3, Train controller
www.raildigital.es/davidruso
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by amartinezv
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 20 December 2018 12:29:15(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 481
Location: Paris, France
Hi Amartinezv (by the way what is your first name?)

Yes you are right. On one hand the wiring has reduced (the so called two wires) but on the other hand a large number of sensors, track occupation signals, various voltages for illumination, Faller car system.
So it looks like we love to crawl under the train (at least I do crawl and NO I don't like it).

You have a nice layout. Your wiring is better/cleaner than mine. Please share more pictures (I won't share picture on the terrible mess under my layout but it works.

Cheers

Jean

My lay-out videos
General operation
Loco change
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline RayF  
#3 Posted : 20 December 2018 16:22:47(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,358
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Ha ha! We all know that our digital layouts always have much more than just two wires! BigGrin

Although my layout is much simpler than Antonio's (His name is in his profile by the way!), it still has a lot of wiring. In my case I have the option to still run in analogue mode, so there is another level of wiring to enable this.

I think the advertising is meant to highlight the fact that, in digital operation, there is no need for complicated block sections to achieve multi-train control. This is true of course, and if we forget track detection for automation and have all our turnouts and signals with integral decoders then you can actually do it with just two wires from the controller to the track.

Most of us however will at some point want to add extra complications, just because we can! BigGrin

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline amartinezv  
#4 Posted : 20 December 2018 16:42:57(UTC)
amartinezv

Spain   
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 229
Location: Madrid,
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Amartinezv (by the way what is your first name?)


My first name is Antonio
Best regards

Edited by moderator 08 February 2019 23:18:25(UTC)  | Reason: Missing bracket at end of quote

Antonio Martínez
marklin, IB, era 3, Train controller
www.raildigital.es/davidruso
Offline David Dewar  
#5 Posted : 20 December 2018 21:24:58(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 6,661
Location: Scotland
Turnouts need no wires with the decoder taking power from the track. Circuit tracks can have just one wire. Most other items need wire but many perhaps not more than two. A lot of my wiring is for lighting stations and houses and Faller circus models etc.
Given up crawling under the base board and just run wires round the edges after joining them together at various points at the layout.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by David Dewar
Offline Minok  
#6 Posted : 20 December 2018 21:36:14(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,975
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
I'd say that with turnouts powered from the track in the c-track, same for signals, one 'can' power a layout with just the 2 wires from a controller. But its typically not recommended for a layout that isn't just a carpet layout.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Minok
Offline wimpie  
#7 Posted : 22 December 2018 17:56:50(UTC)
wimpie

Belgium   
Joined: 22/12/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1
Location: oudenaerde
I agree with Minok
Also for larger set-ups you need more power...thus, boosters, other trafo's for light...
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by wimpie
Offline nkd1969  
#8 Posted : 08 February 2019 14:05:28(UTC)
nkd1969

Norway   
Joined: 07/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: Oslo
As a dumb novice, I really thought I could use two wires, but live and learn BigGrin

So I keep on spending money like a drunken sailor, surfing this forum and youtube to learn as much as possible.
The learning curve is steep BigGrin

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by nkd1969
Offline Minok  
#9 Posted : 08 February 2019 18:40:52(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,975
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: nkd1969 Go to Quoted Post
As a dumb novice, I really thought I could use two wires, but live and learn BigGrin

So I keep on spending money like a drunken sailor, surfing this forum and youtube to learn as much as possible.
The learning curve is steep BigGrin



To be fair, what you can build on a typical table top layout you can probably do just fine with just the 2 wires; there is enough power for that. You many need to run some additional wires around the track to plug in at different places so you get consistent power around the layout.

Its simple math - you know what the power output of your controller is. Once can measure how much power a running loco pulling cars takes, multiply by # of trains you expect to have running / powered at the same time (powered but stationary decoders still draw power, but less than moving), and add the power draw of your landscape lighting, and some buffer for turnouts (their decoders draw a bit, but most of the power comes from the actual switching, but your not switching all of them at the same time).

But if your filling a room with trains, or building a station with may platforms, where a lot is going to be drawing power there, vs the mainline that runs out and returns, those larger situations will likely require dividing up your layout into power zones or splitting up what is powered with which source.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline nkd1969  
#10 Posted : 08 February 2019 20:13:29(UTC)
nkd1969

Norway   
Joined: 07/02/2019(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: Oslo
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: nkd1969 Go to Quoted Post
As a dumb novice, I really thought I could use two wires, but live and learn BigGrin

So I keep on spending money like a drunken sailor, surfing this forum and youtube to learn as much as possible.
The learning curve is steep BigGrin



To be fair, what you can build on a typical table top layout you can probably do just fine with just the 2 wires; there is enough power for that. You many need to run some additional wires around the track to plug in at different places so you get consistent power around the layout.

Its simple math - you know what the power output of your controller is. Once can measure how much power a running loco pulling cars takes, multiply by # of trains you expect to have running / powered at the same time (powered but stationary decoders still draw power, but less than moving), and add the power draw of your landscape lighting, and some buffer for turnouts (their decoders draw a bit, but most of the power comes from the actual switching, but your not switching all of them at the same time).

But if your filling a room with trains, or building a station with may platforms, where a lot is going to be drawing power there, vs the mainline that runs out and returns, those larger situations will likely require dividing up your layout into power zones or splitting up what is powered with which source.


I didn't know why people had all those wires at their layout, and thought Märklin C-track digital, did not need any of that Blushing
Maybe going gray a few years back made me blond LOL
Offline Rwill  
#11 Posted : 08 February 2019 20:58:29(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 512
Location: England, London
My relatively modest c track layout comprises 270 pieces of track, 30 turnouts and 3 uncouplers controlled from a CS2. There are 3 k83's conveniently grouped to 9 turnouts with 74491's and the three uncouplers and 3 turnouts that have their own decoders all powered from the nearest track. To me as turnouts are used one by one the current draw on the layout is minimal. To me this is simple two wire digital layout control. I have experimented with hobby signal powered through an M84 with a bit more mains power plugged in. However our two cats decided that hobby signals look good enough to eat and it was getting a bit expensive to keep replacing them. So I still believe in the concept of Digital is two wires red and brown. If I was starting again I would use track decoders for all the turnouts and would literally be at two wires.
Offline amartinezv  
#12 Posted : 10 February 2019 08:08:13(UTC)
amartinezv

Spain   
Joined: 25/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 229
Location: Madrid,
Hello

My layout is long and narrow, approximately 7 m long and 60-80cm wide. It is divided in 4 modules of approximately 1,75 m long, to facilitate its disassembly and transfer (it already happened). It also has two levels, the upper one is visible with K track and some M. In the lower one there are two hidden stations, one with C track and the other with M track.

Logically from the control panel I have to take the digital signal to all the tracks of the 4 modules, I have approximately 50 or 60 meters of tracks, and marklin recommends electrical connections every 2 meters of track. The model has about 48 electromagnetic items ( turnouts, signals and uncoupling tracks), and since it is computer controlled, I have about 64 detection sections in the layout.

The k83 I use are as close as possible to the turnouts and signals they control. Although I started buying märklin's, I have used LDT and Viessmann since they have an additional connection to supply power to the turnouts from an AC transformer.

The visible part of the model is connected to the digital control unit, while the hidden part is connected to a booster.

I have 1 transformer of 50 VA for the digital unit, another transformer of 50 VA for the booster, and 2 transformers type 6647 to supply power to the turnouts and for lighting.

All this, although it is very simple, in the end it becomes apparently complicated and what in the beginning were only two cables becomes something more complex.

Best regards
Antonio Martínez
marklin, IB, era 3, Train controller
www.raildigital.es/davidruso
Offline Goofy  
#13 Posted : 17 February 2019 09:46:48(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 7,999
The two wires are synonymously with digital and analog feeder to the track.
While digital are synonymously control digital locomotives, digital signals and turnouts decoder motor/switch independent on the same track.
DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline Alsterstreek  
#14 Posted : 17 February 2019 16:28:58(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,484
Location: westernmost
Well, I get away with only two wires dangling below my layout for powering dozens of meters of C track with two dozen turnouts, half of them equipped with "snap on" 74460 and 74490 decoders.
Offline PMPeter  
#15 Posted : 17 February 2019 18:18:21(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 965
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
Well, I get away with only two wires dangling below my layout for powering dozens of meters of C track with two dozen turnouts, half of them equipped with "snap on" 74460 and 74490 decoders.


And how are the other half of the turnouts controlled or are they manual?
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by PMPeter
Offline Alsterstreek  
#16 Posted : 17 February 2019 22:07:43(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Portugal   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4,484
Location: westernmost
Exactly, manually thrown (or cut open by train).
Offline Goofy  
#17 Posted : 20 March 2019 19:36:28(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 7,999
I did bought a miniature switch 2 pole on-off-on to control the tortoise motor.
You see in the picture that it´s not necessary to use lot of wires by use analog power from digital system.
I shall test with another miniature switch 2 pole (on)-off-(on) which also are same way but you pull up the switch arm until the turnout motor did switched all over the way to stop.

DSC_0002_025.JPG

DCC means Digital Command Control.

Offline Bigdaddynz  
#18 Posted : 21 March 2019 01:32:52(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 16,611
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Circuit tracks can have just one wire. Most other items need wire.....


Is that Orange wire??

Contact the Purellum Trading Company if you need some!
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline river6109  
#19 Posted : 21 March 2019 03:46:16(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 12,498
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
orange wires are always out of stock, my main wire colours are black, blue, yellow, brown, red, yellow-green,

main wire and sub wire = brown and red = digital
main wire and sub wire = brown & yellow = AC lights
main wire and sub wire = brown & yellow-green = DC
main wire = blue = sensors
sub wire = black = lights > main wire = brown & yellow

I don't have more than 2 wires for each connection but for your information my brown and red wires are 50 meters long. my yellow and brown wires are 100 meters long, my blue wires are 150 meters long and all my sub wires are 200 meters long,

sub wire meaning a wire is connected from a digital/analog component to the main wire or a connection between electronic components such as signals modules, braking modules, servo motor modules, opto coupler sensors.
I soon will be starting with my new satellite navigation and positioning system (SNAP) and a wireless point to point system (WppS) and this requires no wires at all but its not going to happen until April 1st of this year.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2019, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.715 seconds.