Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline Marklin67  
#1 Posted : 22 July 2018 04:32:05(UTC)
Marklin67

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2017(UTC)
Posts: 14
Location: Wisconsin, Waterford
Hello,
I purchased a older marklin Ho starter set that came with a blue transformer . I also purchased a white transformer 32VA for the much newer locomotives. Could some one tell me what year locomotives work best with the white transformer. And what year locomotives run best with blue transformer. I am using I believe the m track from the late 80 s. I am new to the marklin Ho . I mainly collect marklin Z Thank you so much.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 22 July 2018 05:05:07(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
All Marklin locos will work with all types of transformers, both white and blue.

There is a danger in using older blue transformers with newer digital locomotives, in that the reversing pulse can be too high a voltage and end up destroying digital decoders. This is often because older blue transformers were spec'd for 220V or 110V (US) and then used with 240/230V or 120V mains, and therefore gave out more voltage than they would normally. When the reverse pulse was used, then the output voltage could be as high as 25v.

There is also a danger with blue transformers in that if one transformer had its yellow output connected to the yellow output of another transformer (along with the brown wire connected) you had the danger of mains voltage appearing on the plug pins of the 2nd transformer if the 1st was plugged into the mains.

The white transformers are properly spec'd for the mains voltage they are used with, plus supposedly have protection against 'back transforming', i.e, against 2 transformers accidentally having their yellow pins joined together. I say supposedly, because it was mentioned in another similar thread that not all white transformers have this protection, and no one knows how to tell the difference!

If your blue transformer is a 280A type, then you should have it checked immediately by an electrician, as the cable insulation in the lead and inside the transformer breaks down over time, presenting an electrocution risk.

You can still use your blue transformers to power accessories and lights, providing the transformer has been verified as electrically safe.
thanks 6 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline David Dewar  
#3 Posted : 22 July 2018 11:44:27(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Never quite understand why users just don't buy a new and up to date transformer/switch pack. They should last almost forever and are safe.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 22 July 2018 13:56:29(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Marklin67 Go to Quoted Post
Hello,
I purchased a older marklin Ho starter set that came with a blue transformer . I also purchased a white transformer 32VA for the much newer locomotives. Could some one tell me what year locomotives work best with the white transformer. And what year locomotives run best with blue transformer. I am using I believe the m track from the late 80 s. I am new to the marklin Ho . I mainly collect marklin Z Thank you so much.


For the reasons given in the excellent piece by Bigdaddynz you may find that newer locos may have a tendency to initiate the reversing mechanism on older transformers when set to the maximum speed. This is only a problem where a mechanical reversing mechanism is fitted. The solution is to tweak the setting on the reversing mechanism so the spring tension is slightly higher. Equally a revesing unit that has been set up on an older transformer may not properly reverse when used with a newer transformer.

If you have either of these problems come back and you will be guided through the adjustment process.

thanks 2 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
Offline Marklin67  
#5 Posted : 22 July 2018 15:12:04(UTC)
Marklin67

United States   
Joined: 30/12/2017(UTC)
Posts: 14
Location: Wisconsin, Waterford
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
All Marklin locos will work with all types of transformers, both white and blue.

There is a danger in using older blue transformers with newer digital locomotives, in that the reversing pulse can be too high a voltage and end up destroying digital decoders. This is often because older blue transformers were spec'd for 220V or 110V (US) and then used with 240/230V or 120V mains, and therefore gave out more voltage than they would normally. When the reverse pulse was used, then the output voltage could be as high as 25v.

There is also a danger with blue transformers in that if one transformer had its yellow output connected to the yellow output of another transformer (along with the brown wire connected) you had the danger of mains voltage appearing on the plug pins of the 2nd transformer if the 1st was plugged into the mains.

The white transformers are properly spec'd for the mains voltage they are used with, plus supposedly have protection against 'back transforming', i.e, against 2 transformers accidentally having their yellow pins joined together. I say supposedly, because it was mentioned in another similar thread that not all white transformers have this protection, and no one knows how to tell the difference!

If your blue transformer is a 280A type, then you should have it checked immediately by an electrician, as the cable insulation in the lead and inside the transformer breaks down over time, presenting an electrocution risk.

You can still use your blue transformers to power accessories and lights, providing the transformer has been verified as electrically safe.


Offline Bigdaddynz  
#6 Posted : 23 July 2018 00:48:56(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Never quite understand why users just don't buy a new and up to date transformer/switch pack.


Easy, the new transformers ain't cheap.

The price for a new 66471 transformer is around 90 euros, whereas a 2nd hand transformer can be obtained for half that or even less.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline RayF  
#7 Posted : 23 July 2018 09:51:23(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Last time I looked there were many 6647 white transformers on eBay split from starter sets for a fraction of the price of a new 66471.

In fact I obtained my last transformer by buying a starter set for £80, and ended up as a bonus with a Br81 Delta equipped loco, four useful freight wagons, and an oval of C track.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Michael4  
#8 Posted : 23 July 2018 17:28:32(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 637
Location: England, South Coast
In the UK the voltage is supposed to be 230v. 230v transformers are thin on the ground. I'm sure many of us are using 220v versions and sending a healthy reverse kick to our locos!

White and blue plastic transformers seem to live happily together. If you are thinking of using a tin transformer heed the advice.
Offline David Dewar  
#9 Posted : 23 July 2018 20:32:08(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,333
Location: Scotland
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: David Dewar Go to Quoted Post
Never quite understand why users just don't buy a new and up to date transformer/switch pack.


Easy, the new transformers ain't cheap.

The price for a new 66471 transformer is around 90 euros, whereas a 2nd hand transformer can be obtained for half that or even less.


You can get a new switchpack for around 65 euros . No point in using unsafe 280s. Marklin and all model trains are not cheap but I would not advise buying a cheap transformer which could cost you dear.
Same for me would be a control system which is worth spending on in the beginning. Marklin start sets are good value and hopefully will not do any electrical damage.

Its just my view but if you cant spend 65 euros on a new transformer/switchpack then the hobby might be way to expensive. Locos etc now just keep going up in price.

You can buy a start set from around 160 euros which for anybody on a budget is the way to go and you will get the up to date stuff and a two year warranty.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline 60904  
#10 Posted : 27 July 2018 13:05:41(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 312
Some of you might wonder there were even blue metal transformers for 230V, not to forget the last series of blue transformers with plastic body for 230V.
Greetings
Martin
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by 60904
Offline MalinAC  
#11 Posted : 27 July 2018 18:23:05(UTC)
MalinAC

Ireland   
Joined: 29/05/2014(UTC)
Posts: 839
Location: DONEGAL, CARNDONAGH
Like Ray, I got 2 used start sets just for the good transformers. I think I paid 50 Euro each set. Both sets had a good white transformers ,wagons, track and good electric locos. Its the best way to go even if your rotten with money.BigGrin Take care Eddie
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by MalinAC
Offline bph  
#12 Posted : 06 August 2018 17:31:45(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 985
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
All Marklin locos will work with all types of transformers, both white and blue.

There is a danger in using older blue transformers with newer digital locomotives, in that the reversing pulse can be too high a voltage and end up destroying digital decoders. This is often because older blue transformers were spec'd for 220V or 110V (US) and then used with 240/230V or 120V mains, and therefore gave out more voltage than they would normally. When the reverse pulse was used, then the output voltage could be as high as 25v.

There is also a danger with blue transformers in that if one transformer had its yellow output connected to the yellow output of another transformer (along with the brown wire connected) you had the danger of mains voltage appearing on the plug pins of the 2nd transformer if the 1st was plugged into the mains.

The white transformers are properly spec'd for the mains voltage they are used with, plus supposedly have protection against 'back transforming', i.e, against 2 transformers accidentally having their yellow pins joined together. I say supposedly, because it was mentioned in another similar thread that not all white transformers have this protection, and no one knows how to tell the difference!

If your blue transformer is a 280A type, then you should have it checked immediately by an electrician, as the cable insulation in the lead and inside the transformer breaks down over time, presenting an electrocution risk.

You can still use your blue transformers to power accessories and lights, providing the transformer has been verified as electrically safe.


Thanks for the information.
I use some old light blue ones for light etc. I did a quick check and got a reverse of 30,7v from 37540 and 28,3v from 6631. So, I will be carful and not run anny new locks on the old blue ones. (have use some delta lock and 6090 ones before a got the 6021, and they all survived.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by bph
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 06 August 2018 17:56:55(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The specification for modern decoders allows (at least) 28.28 V. But it can't harm to be on the safe side.
The reversing voltage will be lower with a few light bulbs connected to the transformer.
OTOH variations of the mains voltage can lead to higher reversing voltages.

Old Delta and 6090 decoders were made in the days of the blue transformers and should not have problems with them and their reversing voltages.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#14 Posted : 06 August 2018 22:37:10(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: 60904 Go to Quoted Post
Some of you might wonder there were even blue metal transformers for 230V, not to forget the last series of blue transformers with plastic body for 230V.


My Marklin 6115 blue metal bodied transformer is spec'd for 230v.
Offline Will  
#15 Posted : 11 August 2018 15:02:35(UTC)
Will

United States   
Joined: 26/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 320
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
I'm probably too paranoid, but I'm leery of using my old blue M transformer from my 70s starter set. (Perhaps you are talking about more recent versions before white). Guess I'm the sucker who pays more for the new transformer, but with my luck with electrical items, I'd probably start a fire using my old blue transformer. Laugh
Offline joyofmarklin  
#16 Posted : 17 December 2018 02:37:17(UTC)
joyofmarklin

United States   
Joined: 25/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 116
Location: phoenix
Help my newish White transformer has stopped powering my locomotives,! The lights and turnouts still work, but no power to the track? Happened after some carriages with lights derailed. I thought the transformer had a safety thermal switch that would reset after a couple of minutes, but alas it hasn’t! So am using my old blue transformer with a transformer to go to 120. Any advice on how to get the white transformer to work again plse?
Offline dominator  
#17 Posted : 17 December 2018 03:48:18(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
One of my 280 tranny's delivers over 29v when the reverse button is pressed. All of my blue tranny's have new power leads and they are in phased the same. The guts of the blue tranny's is practically bullet proof and work well with the older 50's and 60's Locos.

I have a white 66471 tranny, which runs through my delta circuit which when turned to about 25 on it's scale, sets a 33121 loco going like a cheetah that had its balls kicked.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline mvd71  
#18 Posted : 17 December 2018 09:19:46(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,708
Location: Auckland,
Exactly how fast is a cheetah with its balls kicked? Mph or kph is fine as a reference.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mvd71
Offline dominator  
#19 Posted : 18 December 2018 00:02:09(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Very fast. [ 10 times scale speed I reckon ] More than 70 mph.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline xxup  
#20 Posted : 18 December 2018 00:19:17(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Doesn't it depend on what kicked the cheetah's balls? Confused
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by xxup
Offline dominator  
#21 Posted : 18 December 2018 02:20:20(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
It would have to be fast to get near a cheetah eh Adrian.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline skeeterbuck  
#22 Posted : 18 December 2018 14:24:33(UTC)
skeeterbuck

United States   
Joined: 15/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 523
Location: Maryland, Baltimore
Well... back on topic, I have one of the blue plastic case 30VA transformers. I measured the following voltages:

Line in 124V, full speed 18.1V, reverse activation 28.4V

I have used this transformer to control engines that had digital decoders without any damage. You can see that I'm pushing my luck with my reversing voltage at the max for the decoders.

FWIW: The specs on the transformer are full speed 17V and reverse 27V with a line in of 120V.
Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 18 December 2018 14:56:21(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: skeeterbuck Go to Quoted Post
FWIW: The specs on the transformer are full speed 17V and reverse 27V with a line in of 120V.
So far I only saw Märklin transformers with nominal reversing voltages of 23 V or 24 V respectively.

Not all decoders have problems with reversing voltages above 28 V.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline kweekalot  
#24 Posted : 18 December 2018 18:58:56(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,435
Location: Holland
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
… One of my 280 tranny's delivers over 29v when the reverse button is pressed...

Blink
Here in Holland a 'tranny' means something completely different and has nothing to do with mrr.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by kweekalot
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#25 Posted : 18 December 2018 21:52:19(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
Here in Holland a 'tranny' means something completely different and has nothing to do with mrr.


What, are you saying your tranny's don't deliver 29v when their reverse button is pushed.......?

Its all about context - we have the same meaning here you are referring too, but in this case we are talking about transformers (and not the toy / movie 'transformers' either!
Offline mike c  
#26 Posted : 19 December 2018 01:24:47(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Marklin67 Go to Quoted Post
Hello,
I purchased a older marklin Ho starter set that came with a blue transformer . I also purchased a white transformer 32VA for the much newer locomotives. Could some one tell me what year locomotives work best with the white transformer. And what year locomotives run best with blue transformer. I am using I believe the m track from the late 80 s. I am new to the marklin Ho . I mainly collect marklin Z Thank you so much.


For the reasons given in the excellent piece by Bigdaddynz you may find that newer locos may have a tendency to initiate the reversing mechanism on older transformers when set to the maximum speed. This is only a problem where a mechanical reversing mechanism is fitted. The solution is to tweak the setting on the reversing mechanism so the spring tension is slightly higher. Equally a revesing unit that has been set up on an older transformer may not properly reverse when used with a newer transformer.

If you have either of these problems come back and you will be guided through the adjustment process.



Most locomotives are set to activate the reverse mechanism when a voltage of 23VAC is detected. The fastest designated running speed was I believe when the transformer had an output of 19VAC. If using an older transformer with higher voltage, the output of 16-19VAC becomes 18-21VAC, which may trigger a reverse charge if the output is on the high side. Older North American equipment was designed to work between 100-117VAC. Output is today standardized at 120VAC, so once again, older transformers will have an output that surpasses the 16VAC and 23VAC targets by a little bit.

Older transformers (195X-1970) had issues with internal wiring where the cord deteriorated and resulted in live voltage on the housing.
On transformers prior to the 1980s, there was a risk that a transformer connected to a layout that was not properly insulated into sections could result in a transformer that was unplugged from the wall (mains) could have a live plug voltage as it effectively took the 16VAC from the layout and converted it back to 117VAC or 220VAC as the case may be.

The 1970s and 1980s blue plastic transformers are safer, but may also yield excessive output when the reverse pulse is initiated due to changes in the line voltage in some areas. The more recent ones may already be designed to prevent the transformer from upconverting track voltage to mains levels. Some of them were already equipped with safety plugs which ensure that all transformers are plugged in with the same polarity (phase).

My recommendation would be to pick up one or two 6647 type transformers. As some have said, they can be had from broken apart start sets, but there are also dealers who sell boxed ones at good prices.

As far as those who call their transformers trannys or trannies. Maybe you should be playing with LGB instead of Maerklin. ;)

Regards

Mike C
Offline dominator  
#27 Posted : 19 December 2018 02:25:36(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
In the context of this conversation, tranny's is referring to transformers and not guys dressed as gals or any other miss-representation.

I mentioned the white 66471 tranny, which runs through my delta circuit which when turned to about 25 on it's scale, sets a 33121 loco going like a cheetah that had its balls kicked, to perhaps emphasize that the high voltages may not only be present in Blue tranny's.

I must admit I didn't test the voltage of the 66471, as at the time all other delta locos worked as they ought. Maybe I should do that.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by dominator
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 1.186 seconds.