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Offline dickinsonj  
#1 Posted : 26 January 2018 22:02:53(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,683
Location: Crozet, Virginia
I recently isolated a new section of track which will be powered by another booster. It is my understanding that you isolate the positive (B) leads from each other across circuits, but not the common ground (O) leads. Is that correct?

Before powering this new section I tested the isolation with a meter out of an abundance of caution. The powered sections showed about 17.5 volts AC as I expected but the unpowered track still showed about 1.2 volts. Is that normal? Is some power transferred back through the ground somehow? Did I do something wrong?

I am a software guy and I admit that the EE parts of the systems I work on are sometimes hard for me to fully understand, so I am hoping that a hardware person on the forum can help me understand it this is normal or not.

Thanks!
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline rbw993  
#2 Posted : 29 January 2018 17:52:31(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 956
What kind of track is it? Is anything else connected to the isolated track? Finally how did you isolate it?

Roger
Offline dickinsonj  
#3 Posted : 30 January 2018 00:53:30(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,683
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: rbw993 Go to Quoted Post
What kind of track is it? Is anything else connected to the isolated track? Finally how did you isolate it?

Roger

It is all C track.

The C track is a piece of 24071 which will ultimately connect a 24711 to a 24712 - each of which will be in separate circuits. Right now it is just a single piece of 24071 connected to the turnout. That is where I placed the small red isolators from Märklin (74030) which I have always used for this purpose. The one B connector on the turnout and the B connector on the 24071 have them over the inner (male) contacts, which fit inside the female contacts on their mating pieces. I will post a picture in the next few days, since none of this is secured yet.

I have other circuits which I have isolated in this way and which seem to work fine, but I have never put a meter on the unpowered track section before. I did not isolate the ground (O) connectors, which is what I believe Märklin recommends. The isolators are old and have been used before, so maybe I will replace them with new ones and recheck it. I have always just assumed that there would be no voltage in the isolate track until it was connected to the output of a booster. This time I decided to check and I was surprised at what I found.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dickinsonj  
#4 Posted : 31 January 2018 01:08:52(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,683
Location: Crozet, Virginia
OK - things have changed, but I don't think I did it. Cool

I took those track sections apart and checked the isolators, everything looked fine and I snapped it back together. It now also has a start of the next line attached and is showing only ~.4 volts. I don't think it was my checking the isolators or the extra track that changed it, I think it was my old multimeter not autoranging correctly when I checked it earlier.

BTW - this is my second year with a full power bus and it is amazing how much better everything runs when you have a clean signal and plenty of evenly distributed power. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline garben  
#5 Posted : 09 February 2018 02:28:57(UTC)
garben

United States   
Joined: 23/01/2013(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: New York
Jim-

I'm at a point where I'd like to add a booster. Did you set up a ring circuit for track power and ground? If so, am I correct that there would be one ground ring (brown) that both the Central Station and Booster would connect too and two seperate power circuits (red) that you can use to feed your track?

Thanks.
Offline dickinsonj  
#6 Posted : 09 February 2018 03:55:57(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,683
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: garben Go to Quoted Post
Jim-

I'm at a point where I'd like to add a booster. Did you set up a ring circuit for track power and ground? If so, am I correct that there would be one ground ring (brown) that both the Central Station and Booster would connect too and two seperate power circuits (red) that you can use to feed your track?

Thanks.

Exactly!

You need a bus for both the power and ground circuits with connections at least every few meters.

The ground circuits (brown - O) are common to everything and the power circuits (red - B) are isolated for each booster/CS track segment. You can add the first booster directly to the CS and if you ever need to add more boosters, you just chain them together with a 60125 terminal box. Yoddu can even chain together multiple 60125 terminals to add even more boosters if your layout becomes huge. BigGrin
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline garben  
#7 Posted : 09 February 2018 18:31:34(UTC)
garben

United States   
Joined: 23/01/2013(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: New York
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Exactly!

You need a bus for both the power and ground circuits with connections at least every few meters.

The ground circuits (brown - O) are common to everything and the power circuits (red - B) are isolated for each booster/CS track segment. You can add the first booster directly to the CS and if you ever need to add more boosters, you just chain them together with a 60125 terminal box. Yoddu can even chain together multiple 60125 terminals to add even more boosters if your layout becomes huge.



Thanks Jim.

Just so I'm clear, I would have one ground ring (one brown wire for the entire layout) and two separate power (red wires). One connected to CS3 and the other to the booster. So two separate red rings of wire? And I would of course isolate the track so the booster and cs3 are separate.

Sorry, just want to make sure I won't blow up my house....lol
Offline dickinsonj  
#8 Posted : 10 February 2018 01:50:13(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,683
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: garben Go to Quoted Post

Thanks Jim.

Just so I'm clear, I would have one ground ring (one brown wire for the entire layout) and two separate power (red wires). One connected to CS3 and the other to the booster. So two separate red rings of wire? And I would of course isolate the track so the booster and cs3 are separate.

Sorry, just want to make sure I won't blow up my house....lol

No worries - luckily there is no real chance of blowing up the house. Cool

I do a brown and a red wiring bus for each circuit. I attach the brown and red wires to the CS's internal booster or to the external booster that powers each circuit. Then I isolate just the power connectors where the circuits join but not the grounds. One ground circuit for the whole layout would definitely work but might become difficult as your layout grows. I achieve the same thing by not isolating the grounds, but one ground for everything might be cleaner.

Your question is a good one. It might be better to have one ground circuit for everything and then provide separate power circuits for each booster. From an EE perspective I'm not sure that it matters though. There are lots of people on this forum with more experience with that end of things than me, so maybe someone else will offer an opinion.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline michelvr  
#9 Posted : 10 February 2018 02:24:35(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Yes Jim is right on the money! But I actually use two ground circuits to keep everything separate and in correct order for trouble shooting if that is ever needed.


Just to help out and explain I use a separate “BUS” for each booster and yes the O (neutral/-/common) is connected to both boosters. My “BUS” on my layout is 14AWG and feeder wire size is 18AWG.

My layout has a double track mainline oval ( best way to describe it) and that is how I separated the boosters.

One booster for all the track work on the inside track of the double track mainline and one booster for the outside track. All of the track that leads off is being feed power from that booster.

See below for an explanation

..................................======
Booster. ThumpUp ======
===========================
===========================
Booster. ThumbDown ======
................................ ======

Please note the emojis are for directions of track not thumb up or down!

All the rails “O” are connected together but the “B” or pukos are separate to each booster. To get into this deeper please note that I'm using the ESU's Detectors.

I have not had any issues and my layout was built 2013.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by michelvr
Offline garben  
#10 Posted : 10 February 2018 20:38:21(UTC)
garben

United States   
Joined: 23/01/2013(UTC)
Posts: 127
Location: New York
Thank you gentleman. That’s very helpful and I think I have a good grasp on what I need to do. Thanks again!
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by garben
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