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Offline Michael4  
#1 Posted : 06 January 2018 19:34:33(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 643
Location: England, South Coast
I suspect this question has no real answer but any advice appreciated.

On an analogue track controlled by signals I have pairs of locomotives running on the same track, one stopping as the other sets off in the other direction etc. I hope you get the general idea.

I 'overlap' the trains so that one is still coming to a halt while the other is starting off, this takes some of the lurch out of the abrupt stop/start that would otherwise occur.

However I want them to operate at as slow a speed as possible so...

The question is about speed. I would like the locos to run as slowly as possible but to achieve this they each need to travel close to the same speed for a given transformer setting. I have tried using pairs of the same model, for example 3000, 3001, various 800s, 3030 etc but as much as fiddle with the locos themselves I can't get them to run at the same speed for the same trafo setting.

What's the secret if there is one? Presumably brushes of a similar age? Tidy pickups? Adjusting brush tension?

Bearing in mind the age of this stuff am I on a hiding to nowhere?

Any suggestions very welcome!
Offline cookee_nz  
#2 Posted : 06 January 2018 21:37:01(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,956
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
I suspect this question has no real answer but any advice appreciated.

On an analogue track controlled by signals I have pairs of locomotives running on the same track, one stopping as the other sets off in the other direction etc. I hope you get the general idea.

I 'overlap' the trains so that one is still coming to a halt while the other is starting off, this takes some of the lurch out of the abrupt stop/start that would otherwise occur.

However I want them to operate at as slow a speed as possible so...

The question is about speed. I would like the locos to run as slowly as possible but to achieve this they each need to travel close to the same speed for a given transformer setting. I have tried using pairs of the same model, for example 3000, 3001, various 800s, 3030 etc but as much as fiddle with the locos themselves I can't get them to run at the same speed for the same trafo setting.

What's the secret if there is one? Presumably brushes of a similar age? Tidy pickups? Adjusting brush tension?

Bearing in mind the age of this stuff am I on a hiding to nowhere?

Any suggestions very welcome!


Hi Michael, as they say, there is more than one way to tickle a cat (CLEO may be watching so no offensive terms here).

For me, and as many others have done, the trick here lies in isolating the short section where you want slower running, it may be anything from 1,2 up to 4 or 5 track sections.

You must already have at least some sections before the signals isolated and under signal control so this could be a very easy mod indeed.

Now, instead of feeding that isolated section direct from your main Trafo (via the signal switch contacts), you can either put a Resistor into that feed to drop the voltage a little, OR even better, a second Trafo.

Advantage of a second Trafo is that you can easily adjust for different loco characteristics and also you can fine-tune if needed for when the loks are cold vs nicely warmed up. This assumes you have a spare Trafo or two, but you might only need one and could also possibly get away with a cheap low-rating 10 or 16va version depending on the consists. You should be able to feed both isolated sections from a single Trafo but you might prefer them individual.

This method is also quite common for inclines, spirals etc where speeds can change quite considerably.

If you go the Resistor way, you'll want one reasonably grunty such as at least 1/2 - 1 Watt, but the value (Ohms) will need some experimentation. But, a simple and more probable alternative to resistors is light bulbs (in holders), and you are bound to have some of those to play with. Try just one in the reducing circuit and observe the effect, if not enough, add a second or even third, wired in series of course. The lamps need not be visible.

It can be fun doing things like this in analogue.

Hope this gives an idea or two?

Cheers

Steve

image.jpeg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Markus Schild  
#3 Posted : 06 January 2018 21:48:21(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi Michael,

There is no simple solution. Every older Märklin loco has its personality. You will not find two locos with exactly the same behaviour.

In the older signal-book you find a proposal to run the same line with two transformers. One transformer with a fixed setting for the train going uphill and another one for downhill. This needs some wiring and some 7045s, but can be also used to solve your problem. One transformer for the train going clockwise, the other for a train going counter-clockwise.

Regards

Markus
Offline cookee_nz  
#4 Posted : 06 January 2018 21:52:10(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,956
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Markus Schild Go to Quoted Post
Hi Michael,

There is no simple solution. Every older Märklin loco has its personality. You will not find two locos with exactly the same behaviour.

In the older signal-book you find a proposal to run the same line with two transformers. One transformer with a fixed setting for the train going uphill and another one for downhill. This needs some wiring and some 7045s, but can be also used to solve your problem. One transformer for the train going clockwise, the other for a train going counter-clockwise.

Regards

Markus


SNAP!

Laugh ThumpUp
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Michael4  
#5 Posted : 07 January 2018 11:37:28(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 643
Location: England, South Coast
Ah Ha! Your suggestions have got me thinking, the idea of using two trafos per track is beautifully simple and I'm a bit shamefaced to have not thought of it first...

It is clear that trying to match loco performance is a waste of time. It is also worth mentioning that I am tight on space. I use short (3xx/x) coaches and only two to a consist. There is no attempt at real life. Coaches are each lit with their own pick ups so positioning of 5146 is critical!

I use five trafos on an 'M' layout of only 3m x 1m and a bit. There are three 'running' tracks each of which has signal controlling two locos and turnouts. The two 'ground level' tracks also have individual live catenary circuits with their own trafos.

The signals control the track power and not the catenary power (hadn't thought that bit through). This means that the catenary trafos are redundant when the track is being controlled by the signals.

Therefore, taking your excellent advice, all I need to do is to use the trafos currently reserved for catenary power to run the track power 'in the other direction' via the signals and then I'll have the two trafos per ground level track.

I'll have a think about the resistor/voltage drop idea a bit later on. The same effect currently happens when the two trains are running briefly off the same trafo (what I call the overlap), I'l lose this when I move to one trafo for each direction.

If you understand this lot with my hopeless grasp of terminology, I'll be impressed!

Thanks.
(Don't worry, blue metal trafos rewired and I am not about to start using the old black ones!)


UserPostedImageIMG_3271 by dralowid, on Flickr

UserPostedImageIMG_3270 by dralowid, on Flickr

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Offline cookee_nz  
#6 Posted : 07 January 2018 16:33:10(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,956
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Wow, you do got a lot crammed into a small area, very busy layout, well done. ThumpUp

It looks to me like it is two completely seperate layouts yes? ie; the lower and upper levels are not actually connected in any way?

I can not see any ramps or spiral joining them except possibly along the rear straight length, looks like maybe an incline but hard to tell from the end shots and angles. A front view would confirm ?

Glad our suggestions helped, let us know how it works out,

Cheers

Cookee
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Michael4  
#7 Posted : 07 January 2018 18:01:11(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 643
Location: England, South Coast
Well, we haven't got much space in the UK...I like to try and cram in as much as possible and approach the whole thing like a giant Meccano set.

There is a ramp connecting top and bottom by the window at the back:

UserPostedImageIMG_3274 by dralowid, on Flickr

With reversing loops on upper and lower inner tracks a train can run down from the top, round the outer track, onto inner and then round the inner loop and back up again. This is quite entertaining but prevents one from running anything else unless it is manually controlled and fed via catenary. The opportunities for significant head on collisions are many. Of all the bits on the layout the thing that gets used the least is the turntable. Not sure whether to keep it but not really sure how I'd use the resulting space.

UserPostedImageIMG_3273 by dralowid, on Flickr

Thanks to a lot of cheap LED street lights and traditionally lit coaches the whole thing becomes quite theatrical at night. If I could afford proper Marklin lights of the right age I'd use 'em

UserPostedImageIMG_3275 by dralowid, on Flickr

These run on a 3v circuit using an old laptop transformer and one of these cheap thingies:

UserPostedImageIMG_3278 by dralowid, on Flickr

Right now the only things that are attached to the baseboard are two masts, the LED lights and some but not all of the upper track supports. The rest has ample opportunity to come undone at the right moment!
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Offline Michael4  
#8 Posted : 07 January 2018 19:44:09(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 643
Location: England, South Coast
And a quick question about the idea of using two trafos per track.

If for any reason one of the signals doesn't work there is a chance that both trafos would be feeding the same track, ie the two trafos would be connected to each other by their red leads. Would this not be an electrical situation best avoided?
Offline Markus Schild  
#9 Posted : 07 January 2018 19:57:20(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Hi Michael,

look at the signal manual how Märklin proposed it:

UserPostedImage

The feeding of the track is done by the 7045. It is triggered by switching rails. There can't be any red side connection in this case. The 7045 feeds the current either from transformer 1 or 2 but never from both.

The same can be done for complete layouts. One contact - rail which switches the 7045 and the 7045 switches the current from one transformer to the other.

Regards

Markus
Offline Michael4  
#10 Posted : 07 January 2018 23:29:48(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 643
Location: England, South Coast
Hi Markus,

Thanks for the help.

I don't have a 7045 but thought that it may have the same functions as the bottom part of a signal like 7039. Having pulled one apart I realise now that it does not but at least I now understand the difference, I think!

With a signal base, when the solenoid moves, the contacts on both sides are the same, either both 'on'' or both 'off'.

Looking at your diagram, 7045 must be different in that when the solenoid moves one set of contacts on one side is 'on' and the other 'off '. This would allow me to switch power sources.

Best

Michael
Offline baggio  
#11 Posted : 08 January 2018 05:15:42(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
These run on a 3v circuit using an old laptop transformer and one of these cheap thingies:


The first thing that came to my mind when I saw the last one of the cheap "thingies" was a bomb! LOL

What is it exactly?

Silvano

P.S. I love the night scenery. ThumpUp

Offline TEEWolf  
#12 Posted : 08 January 2018 06:36:27(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
And a quick question about the idea of using two trafos per track.

If for any reason one of the signals doesn't work there is a chance that both trafos would be feeding the same track, ie the two trafos would be connected to each other by their red leads. Would this not be an electrical situation best avoided?


Hello Micheal,

please have a look here for analogue signals and M-tracks:

http://s341536299.online...341-model-signals-en.pdf

http://dermodellbahnblog...andbuch-anleitungen.html

http://s341536299.online...753-signal-anleitung.pdf

regards

Wolfgang
Offline Markus Schild  
#13 Posted : 08 January 2018 09:15:19(UTC)
Markus Schild

Germany   
Joined: 14/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,802
Location: Wurttemberg
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Michael4 Go to Quoted Post
These run on a 3v circuit using an old laptop transformer and one of these cheap thingies:


The first thing that came to my mind when I saw the last one of the cheap "thingies" was a bomb! LOL

What is it exactly?





Hi Silvano,

The picture shows an adjustable DC-DC step-down converter. To convert e.g. 12VDC to 3VDC. They are available from ebay or directly from China.

Regards

Markus
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Offline Michael4  
#14 Posted : 08 January 2018 11:57:40(UTC)
Michael4

United Kingdom   
Joined: 02/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 643
Location: England, South Coast
Markus and all, many thanks, my son gave me the step down converter, told me how to use it but never told me its name.

I am reading up about 7045 and am starting to understand its importance in what I am trying to do. It is a component whose function I have never understood till now. Many thanks for guiding me through this, looks like I need to make an Ebay purchase.

Best

Michael

(It occurs to me that I have posted this thread in the wrong section. If anyone needs to move it please go ahead.)
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Offline hxmiesa  
#15 Posted : 09 January 2018 15:59:56(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,522
Location: Spain
All my locos are "matched". This should NOT be done with resistors, but rather by "anti-parallel diodes"!
(Voltage drop over a resistor is proportional with the current draw of the loco, while the drop over a diode is constant)

The voltage drop over a diode is approximatly 0,7V. -So you can insert several links of diodes in series, if you need to lower the vokltage more, for a specific engine.
1-2 links fits in all locomotives. Even the smaller ones! If you want to REALLY fine-tune the adjustment, you can use 1 diode in one direction, and 2 (in series) in the other direction. That would equal a 0,7+0,7/2 = 1,05V drop, with AC power.
Do they get hot? Yes, but it is NOT a problem! My layout have been working for 10 years now that way. (Some 40+ locos).
(Use diode type for "POWER", not for "SIGNAL"). (Mines are black ones, about 4mm long and 2mm diameter. Might be called N4001 or something like that)

So, that is basically it; Start fitting diode-links in series with the motor; More links in the faster locos.
Then, set the knob of the trafo at the smallest possible setting for the slowest/weakest loco, and Presto!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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