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Offline mike c  
#1 Posted : 13 December 2017 16:05:27(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,898
Location: Montreal, QC
I was looking at this photo

https://i0.wp.com/railco...10.jpg?resize=1215%2C759

and wondering what exactly the text on the LED display says…

"If the train is coming towards you and you can read this, get out of the way"?

Regards

Mike C
Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 13 December 2017 16:09:27(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
That's what you get when a quick camera hits a slow LED display: The LEDs flicker at high speed, one after the other or one row after the other or so.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Minok  
#3 Posted : 14 December 2017 00:37:34(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Two modern technologies at play here that make life difficult.

The human eye sees it perfectly.. but:
1) The LED message boards are displaying content in a multiplexed manner - that is the LEDs/segments of the display are not all on all the time, but are flashed at some interval. Like the 24 frames per second of motion picture projection, the human eye/brain cannot perceive that flashing and it looks like its a solid ON image that may scroll and look fine. To things that can take a quick image, like a fast camera, you can grab an instant of that and that won't look like what the human brain sees/interprets. Even a fast film camera could grab such an image state.

2) Modern digital cameras - they use rolling shutters to grab the frame. So the entire grid of pixels isn't captured and stored as a single image, then the next image (frame) is grabbed such that each frame is a new full image of what things look like, say 1/60th of a second later. The frame is captured by grabbing one row of pixels at a time, storing that, then grabbing the next row of pixels and storing that, and so on down the full height of the image.... so when the last row of pixels in the frame is captured and stored, some amount of time has passed since the first row of pixels in the frame was captured and stored, and between those two captures the subject will have moved or changed in some small way. If that change happens fast, such as flashing LEDs at high frequency, then that difference between the rows of the single frame can also be seen as an image artifact.

So when you look at video of modern cars with LED head/tail lights they blink annoyingly on the video replay, and such displays can be illegible in the playback. Compensating in the recording settings/equipment can solve that but usually folks don't do it.

Now to what the actual message says in the image, thats anyone's guess. But my guess is the locomotive designation for those rail lines that need it for the optical detection, since I don't see a loco number on the front of it otherwise, unless thats what those tiny letters near the left side say.


UserPostedImage


But it could be a city or route number, depending on where the train runs, such as this usage on another type of locomotive here in Seattle:

UserPostedImage
Toys of tin and wood rule!
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Minok
Offline kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 14 December 2017 15:02:06(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,109
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

2) Modern digital cameras - they use rolling shutters to grab the frame.


I don't believe they do have a physical shutter - that is relegated to the days of film cameras. The process is done purely by sampling the sensor at some given rate. This rate is affected by how fast the electronics can read read the data out of the camera sensor. But this still produces the same strobe effect you described.

You can also see the same effect with your eyes by looking at a display that you know is strobed and then waving your hand in front of your face - you will see that some of the display is blank and some of it is lit. The same effect can be observed with an old fluorescent tube fitting as these flicker at twice the mains frequency.

When using the digital camera the 'shutter noise' you hear is a sound effect to give the user a warm fuzzy feeling that they have actually taken a photo.

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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 14 December 2017 15:09:54(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
When using the digital camera the 'shutter noise' you hear is a sound effect to give the user a warm fuzzy feeling that they have actually taken a photo.
Nope. My digital cameras from Olympus and Canon still have a shutter sound when I turn the sounds all off.
There is no sound when taking photos with my camcorder or smartphone - those do not have a physical shutter.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline Minok  
#6 Posted : 14 December 2017 15:38:59(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

2) Modern digital cameras - they use rolling shutters to grab the frame.


I don't believe they do have a physical shutter -



I agree and didn't intend to give the impression there was a physical shutter. Some use the term rolling shutter to describe the way the frame is captures from the silicon sensor.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 14 December 2017 15:45:15(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
When using the digital camera the 'shutter noise' you hear is a sound effect to give the user a warm fuzzy feeling that they have actually taken a photo.
Nope. My digital cameras from Olympus and Canon still have a shutter sound when I turn the sounds all off.
There is no sound when taking photos with my camcorder or smartphone - those do not have a physical shutter.


It is possible to have digital cameras that still use a physical mirror to direct the lens image to a viewfinder and the move out of the way when the capture button is pressed thus making a mechanical sound. Most digital cameras do make the sound artificially as there are no moving physical parts. In some regions of the world there is a legal requirement that the camera make a sound, to ensure people nearby know there is a picture being taken, I suspect.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 14 December 2017 17:37:58(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
It is possible to have digital cameras that still use a physical mirror to direct the lens image to a viewfinder and the move out of the way when the capture button is pressed thus making a mechanical sound.
My two cameras do not have mirrors. They were not made for the Japanese market, so there is no legal requirement for an electric sound (be careful when buying grey imports - you may get a camera where the electric shutter sound cannot be turned off).
I think it is the sound of a physical shutter. What else should it be?

The timings of my cameras can be as short as 1/1000th second or 4/1000th second respectively. And even with much longer exposure times you can get unreadable LED displays - mechanical shutter or not.

I think a mechanical shutter makes a difference with fast objects and therefore the more expensive cameras still have them.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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