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Offline xxup  
#1 Posted : 22 November 2017 08:45:29(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
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Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
I am working on a Marklin railcar that I bought second hand years ago. It was originally analogue and had been converted by the last owner to an early version of digital that still used the old magnet. As I have done many conversions in the past, I merely snipped away until I had just a motor and lights.

These LED lights are grounded through the railcar's metal body, so I realised that flickering lights will be the norm for this beast. I can live with this.. Anyway, I wired it up in the "normal" way and then no lights. Cursing

As a check I removed the decoder and applied track voltage through the 8-pin ESU plug at the white wire and then the yellow wire on the socket in the loco. The lights worked correctly - with three yellows in the front and two reds in the rear with the white wire. When I tested with the yellow pin the lights swapped ends. So it seems to be wired correctly. I then placed a multi-meter in series and recorded 114mA current draw.

So now I am thinking that this might be too much current for an ESU M4 v4 decoder. So I tried an 8-pin Marklin mFx (no sound) decoder (sorry can't remember the part number) with the same result.

Originally, the lights were wired through this thing:

UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

Brown = Forward lights
Gray = Rear Lights
Black was wired to the slider at the track/catenary switch
Yellow = can't remember, but I think it was wired to the decoder.

What is this thing? A relay?

How should it be wired?

Is there a better way to fix this problem?

Edited by user 01 December 2017 08:24:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Adrian
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#2 Posted : 22 November 2017 18:10:36(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
I am working on a Marklin railcar that I bought second hand years ago. It was originally analogue and had been converted by the last owner to an early version of digital that still used the old magnet. As I have done many conversions in the past, I merely snipped away until I had just a motor and lights.

These LED lights are grounded through the railcar's metal body, so I realised that flickering lights will be the norm for this beast. I can live with this.. Anyway, I wired it up in the "normal" way and then no lights. Cursing

As a check I removed the decoder and applied track voltage through the 8-pin ESU plug at the white wire and then the yellow wire on the socket in the loco. The lights worked correctly - with three yellows in the front and two reds in the rear with the white wire. When I tested with the yellow pin the lights swapped ends. So it seems to be wired correctly. I then placed a multi-meter in series and recorded 114mA current draw.

So now I am thinking that this might be too much current for an ESU M4 v4 decoder. So I tried an 8-pin Marklin mFx (no sound) decoder (sorry can't remember the part number) with the same result.

Originally, the lights were wired through this thing:


You still need that 'thing'.

You don't say what model you have, but this is also fitted to the Primex 3185 Zugspitzebahn and (can't remember catalog number) U-bahn items.

You risk burning out the decoder outputs without that 'thing'. If you trawl the forum for a thread initiated by me on the Primex items you will find someone posted a page for me from Dr. catheralls Digital Newsletter that gives the details of the 'thing'.

I suspect the high current you describe is because you don't have the 'thing' in circuit.

Offline xxup  
#3 Posted : 22 November 2017 21:21:05(UTC)
xxup

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Location: Australia
Thanks for the reply. I have sent a PM to someone who is a long term subscriber to the magazine.
Adrian
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Offline RayF  
#4 Posted : 23 November 2017 13:55:28(UTC)
RayF

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LEDs need a resistor in series to regulate the current through them to work properly. Are there any resistors in circuit after your conversion? Maybe you need the "thingy" because the "thingy' provides the resistors.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline ktsolias  
#5 Posted : 23 November 2017 16:53:52(UTC)
ktsolias

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It looks to me like an electronic switch.

There are two symmetrical identical circuits.
In each there is a transistor a diode and one resistor 680Ω and 1 resistor 220Ω.

If you post a photo of the other side of the printed circuit board may be can find what exactly is.

Costas
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Offline xxup  
#6 Posted : 23 November 2017 21:25:00(UTC)
xxup

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Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
LEDs need a resistor in series to regulate the current through them to work properly. Are there any resistors in circuit after your conversion? Maybe you need the "thingy" because the "thingy' provides the resistors.


They already have the resistors. I can plug 19v into the circuit and they work fine.
Adrian
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Offline xxup  
#7 Posted : 23 November 2017 21:42:41(UTC)
xxup

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Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
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Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: ktsolias Go to Quoted Post
It looks to me like an electronic switch.

There are two symmetrical identical circuits.
In each there is a transistor a diode and one resistor 680Ω and 1 resistor 220Ω.

If you post a photo of the other side of the printed circuit board may be can find what exactly is.

Costas


Here is the underside. The red lines point to the two resistors. The blue lines point to the diode (the Blocked end is the lower join) and the green circle is the transistor. The flat side of the transistor is on the same side as the two vertical joins.

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Offline ixldoc  
#8 Posted : 23 November 2017 22:37:39(UTC)
ixldoc

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Adrian, my guess is the item looks like two small symmetrical amplifiers .
Each side supplied with track power rectified by the diode and passed via the transistor to the LEDs.
The output from the decoder is applied to the base of the transistor to turn it on depending on direction.
Maybe.
Howard.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 23 November 2017 23:07:07(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ktsolias Go to Quoted Post
It looks to me like an electronic switch.

There are two symmetrical identical circuits.
In each there is a transistor a diode and one resistor 680Ω and 1 resistor 220Ω.

If you post a photo of the other side of the printed circuit board may be can find what exactly is.

Costas


No need to work it out, the schematic is in the post I mentioned.

[edit]
Actually it is not in the post, as after searching for it I realised it was forwarded to me by a PM. The post I was referring to is over here.

It is worth looking furhter up that thread as it gives the article voloume and page numbers, if you have access to back copies of the news letter.
Offline xxup  
#10 Posted : 24 November 2017 00:33:07(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
I found that post and noted that there was no PDF. However, another member has taken pity on me and kindly forwarded a copy of the PDF to me.

However, I still don't understand from the article, what the circuit actually does.

Here is the circuit from the article.

UserPostedImage

I note that it states that it will only work with decoders that use a 50250 chip. Will this work with the ESU lokpilot M4 v4?
Adrian
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Offline river6109  
#11 Posted : 24 November 2017 05:14:18(UTC)
river6109

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Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Adrian, I'm just wondering why you need this small circuit board in the first place, why not just solder the wires together where they suppose to go and on each wire white (front or yellow (rear), one thing you haven't shown is what type of lights have you got on your rail car and I assume there are marker lights as well if the marker lights (bulb or led) are separate from the white bulb/led) you could rearrange the wires as follow:

white : F0 front with resistor
yellow: F0 rear with resistor
Aux 1 -6 (your choice) purple colour wire

marker light front with resistor
marker light rear with resistor

is there an option to isolate the bulb/led from the ground and use the blue wire for flicker free operation of your lights.

I'm also assuming you have lok programmer so you can program the ESU decoder.

programming as follow:

front and rear lights under F0
Marker light front: via Aux function 1-6
Marker light rear: via Aux function 1-6

you can program them in such a way that when the loco drives forward you program the marker lights so they come on at the back and visa versa.

by selecting Aux functions you can turn them on or off if you wish to do so.
in your case having an 8 pin Lokpilot you have to use Aux 1 or Aux 2 for your marker lights,
using a 21 pin lokpilot with an ESU adapter plate you would have Aux functions from 1-6

by using led's you need of course resistors

regards.,

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
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Offline xxup  
#12 Posted : 24 November 2017 06:24:49(UTC)
xxup

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Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
The problem with the LEDs are that they are mounted on a board which is grounded through the body. Removing this ground seems impossible without re engineering the light mounting - way too much for me to do..

Using the Aux is not a bad idea. BTW these are not normal LEDs - they seem to be very early versions of them and they are rectangular..
Adrian
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Offline river6109  
#13 Posted : 24 November 2017 09:42:36(UTC)
river6109

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Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
The problem with the LEDs are that they are mounted on a board which is grounded through the body. Removing this ground seems impossible without re engineering the light mounting - way too much for me to do..

Using the Aux is not a bad idea. BTW these are not normal LEDs - they seem to be very early versions of them and they are rectangular..


Adrian waht type of rail car are we talking about, is it the Berliner rail car, I remembered I've converted this one with a board that had rectangle yellowish Led's and round red led's.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline xxup  
#14 Posted : 24 November 2017 12:51:12(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
The problem with the LEDs are that they are mounted on a board which is grounded through the body. Removing this ground seems impossible without re engineering the light mounting - way too much for me to do..

Using the Aux is not a bad idea. BTW these are not normal LEDs - they seem to be very early versions of them and they are rectangular..


Adrian waht type of rail car are we talking about, is it the Berliner rail car, I remembered I've converted this one with a board that had rectangle yellowish Led's and round red led's.

John



Sadly, all I know is that it is a Marklin (moulded on the weight under each car) tin plate railcar.. It could be primex, but I did not buy it with a box - it is blue.. On this board the leds are red and yellow on the same led.. Three pin led.. The high beam third light is a single yellow LED..
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 25 November 2017 18:17:28(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Adrian, I'm just wondering why you need this small circuit board in the first place,


The problem, as Adrian has already stated, is that the LEDs have their common connection attached to the chassis. The red/Yellow LEDs are three pin ones with one pin common to the two colours. This connection needs to go to the negative voltage on the decoder.

The next part is that the common voltage in the 6080 decoder is the opposite supply, i.e. the positive voltage. The result is the 'thingy' is needed to handle the change of common voltage from the positive supply to the negative supply.

I have looked at converting my U-Bahn and Zugspitze Bahn Primex units to ESU M4 decoders, and have come to the conclusion that the best way to do it is to take the LED units out, remove the common connection from the ground and run another wire to the decoder common. The problem is that it needs to be done in the other coach as well, and a second wire needs to be run between the coaches to achieve this. I have got so far, and stalled for lack of time.

Offline DaleSchultz  
#16 Posted : 26 November 2017 15:19:50(UTC)
DaleSchultz

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Posts: 3,997
How about replacing the LEDs with ones that do not use a common pin? Then ground them to the chassis.
I have to convert my Berlin S-Bahn train set but I have not yet taken the factory lights out to look at the problem in detail.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 27 November 2017 14:36:17(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
How about replacing the LEDs with ones that do not use a common pin? Then ground them to the chassis.
I have to convert my Berlin S-Bahn train set but I have not yet taken the factory lights out to look at the problem in detail.


You could if you can find a set of LEDs that will fit the cutouts in the body. I think you will find it is easier to disconnect the ground and then work around what you have got.

Offline DaleSchultz  
#18 Posted : 27 November 2017 16:14:52(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
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Posts: 3,997
I see. Need to look at the cutouts in the S-Bahn set. Perhaps SMD LEDs will do it.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline kiwiAlan  
#19 Posted : 27 November 2017 18:22:06(UTC)
kiwiAlan

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Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I see. Need to look at the cutouts in the S-Bahn set. Perhaps SMD LEDs will do it.


You could, but you will need to provide your own lenses. The cutout in the bodywork fits the rectangular LED snuggly. That is why converting to another LED becomes a problem.

Offline river6109  
#20 Posted : 28 November 2017 02:39:56(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
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Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I see. Need to look at the cutouts in the S-Bahn set. Perhaps SMD LEDs will do it.


the both round led's and not combined as white/red, I've done the conversion but can't remember how I did it, I think in the end I've ruined the leds and made up a new circuit board.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline xxup  
#21 Posted : 29 November 2017 07:58:11(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
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Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
What a nightmare! This positive body stuff is just nuts!

In the end the best solution was to cut the tracks that connected the "positive ground" connection to the body of the loco (i.e. isolate the LED boards from the railcar body) and then run a new wire to the common power feed to the slider/pantographs. The "thing" was then connected in the normal way.

UserPostedImage

All works perfectly now.. These LEDs don't flicker either.. Very interesting..
Adrian
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#22 Posted : 30 November 2017 03:34:38(UTC)
DaleSchultz

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Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post

In the end the best solution was to cut the tracks that connected the "positive ground" connection to the body of the loco (i.e. isolate the LED boards from the railcar body) and then run a new wire to the common power feed to the slider/pantographs. The "thing" was then connected in the normal way.


I understand how you cut the lines on the circuit board OK.

But by connecting the power feed to a slider, how are the lights switched by the decoder if the decoder is not switching ground?




Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline xxup  
#23 Posted : 30 November 2017 04:18:19(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
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Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
That's done by the "Thing"..

Bearing in mind that I used an ESU decoder (ignoring motor connections) where:
White = Headlights
Yellow = Tail lights
Black = Ground
Red = Power

The Black from the decoder was soldered to a lug on the motor. The black wire from the "Thing" was also soldered to this lug.

The red wire from the decoder was soldered to the common point on the switch that selects Slider or Pantograph source. The blue wires (you can use any colour here) that I soldered onto the two LED boards were also soldered to this point.

Brown wire of the "Thing" was soldered to the yellow side of the LEDs in the front railcar and to the red side of the LED in the rear wagon.
The Grey wire of the "Thing" was soldered to the red side of the LED in the front railcar and to the yellow side of the LED in the rear wagon.

The White wire from the decoder was soldered to the yellow wire on the "Thing" that is on the same side as the brown wire.
The Yellow wire from the decoder was soldered to the yellow wire on the "Thing" that is on the same side as the grey wire.

I will draw up a coloured diagram shortly.


Adrian
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Offline xxup  
#24 Posted : 30 November 2017 05:12:25(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
Hopefully this diagram makes things a little clearer..

UserPostedImage

The horseshoe shape is meant to show the cut track where you solder the blue wire on both LED boards.
Adrian
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#25 Posted : 30 November 2017 15:31:31(UTC)
DaleSchultz

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Posts: 3,997
Originally Posted by: xxup Go to Quoted Post
Hopefully this diagram makes things a little clearer..


Fabulous - thanks!
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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