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Offline mbarreto  
#1 Posted : 04 November 2017 11:35:08(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
Hello,

For CS2 and CS3 Märklin has available 60VA and 100VA power supplies and says that the 100VA should be used with Gauge 1 or LGB and for smaller scales the 60VA is the right one. This seems to be related with the output voltage of the Power Supplies and the CS when using different power supplies.
It seems that the output voltage of the 100VA Power Supply is higher than the 60VA one and so the CS output voltage also is when using the 100VA one.

If that is the case, shouldn't both Power Supplies be regulated to the same output voltage and keep it constant for the expected load range the CS may present to them?

A different thing is how the CSs Power Amplifiers behave to diferent loads, or let's say, for different output currents. In a good design
the voltage drop should be minimal between no load and full load. Is this what happens with the CSs?

I do all these questions because it was good to have the possibility of use all the power the CSs can deliver with the 100VA
Power pack to an H0 layout and this seems not to be the case. Powering the layout in several different points from a single 100VA power supply would avoid the need for 1 more Booster.

The last question may seem a bit peppered, but that is not the idea. Just curiosity: Does the Ecos suffer the same?

Miguel

Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 04 November 2017 14:19:41(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,084
Location: Paris, France
Hi Miguel

I have a CS2 and a 60101 (100VA) power supply since 5 years or so and contrary to Marklin advice to use only 60061 (60 VA) power supply.
The voltage is 18.3 V and is fairly well regulated. Like others I have short circuits caused by derailments and this has never caused any problem.
I have a power cabling of 2.5 mm²
The benefit is to avoid using boosters in most cases. My layout includes 29 switches, 10 triple switches and 7 double-switches together with signals and 37 powered on Sound locomotives.
When registering locos I have no problems and to speed up things I call each loco w/o changing any parameter on them.
The overall consumption is 3.7 amps with spikes to 4 amps.
Here is my set-up:

Because I have a second CS2, I have two 60061 units and they provide a slightly higher voltage (18.6 volts). I believe all marklin PS were meant to provide the same regulated voltage whatever the use on HO, N ,1 or LGB etc.

Kind regards

Jean
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Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 04 November 2017 17:07:25(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
It seems that the output voltage of the 100VA Power Supply is higher than the 60VA one and so the CS output voltage also is when using the 100VA one.
The product database gives 19 V for both power supplies, so it seems one should expect the same track voltage with either power supply.


Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
Just curiosity: Does the Ecos suffer the same?
Yes and no. The ECoS comes with an adjustable power supply that allows track voltages in a range between about 14 V and about 21 V - lower voltages for smaller scales.
Stable input voltages will give nearly stable track voltages with both CS2/CS3 and CS1/ECoS.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#4 Posted : 04 November 2017 19:35:39(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Miguel

I have a CS2 and a 60101 (100VA) power supply since 5 years or so and contrary to Marklin advice to use only 60061 (60 VA) power supply.
The voltage is 18.3 V and is fairly well regulated.
...
Because I have a second CS2, I have two 60061 units and they provide a slightly higher voltage (18.6 volts). I believe all marklin PS were meant to provide the same regulated voltage whatever the use on HO, N ,1 or LGB etc.

Kind regards

Jean


There will be some variation in the output voltage due to component tolerances. I wouldn't be surprised at this variation.

Tom (HO) said it is nominally 19V, so judging by your figures it looks like there is something like a +/- 0.75V tolerance (+/-4%), I wouldn't be surprised if the factory spec is +/- 5% (near enough +/-1V).

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Offline mbarreto  
#5 Posted : 04 November 2017 20:22:52(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
Hello again,

Thanks for all your answers.

According to your answers, I conclude that the M* statement saying that the 100VA PS is for Gauge 1 and LGB and the 60VA is for HO and smaller scales seems to be a bit nonsense as the regulation is good. Indeed I think was too bad if it was different...

Tom,
Relative to lower voltages for smaller scales in the Ecos seems to mean that for example N scale decoders need lower voltages. Is that also a misleading idea?
I ask it because CSs can control N or H0 decoders with the same power supply...

Jean,
I really like your layout. Congratulations!
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 04 November 2017 20:37:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
According to your answers, I conclude that the M* statement saying that the 100VA PS is for Gauge 1 and LGB and the 60VA is for HO and smaller scales seems to be a bit nonsense as the regulation is good. Indeed I think was too bad if it was different...
Same V, but more A with 100 VA. For 100 VA or 5 A you need appropriate wires.
Märklin say "don't do it" to avoid liability. Legalese, not nonsense.

Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
Relative to lower voltages for smaller scales in the Ecos seems to mean that for example N scale decoders need lower voltages. Is that also a misleading idea?
If you have 22 V track voltage then the decoder feeds short pulses of 20 V into the motor.
With 14 V track voltage there will only be 12 V pulses going to the motor. Lower voltages reduce motor wear.

The 60215 manual allows between 14 V DC and 24 V DC as input voltages. I guess 19 V is a "one size fits all" approach, but lower voltages would be better for N gauge while gauges I and IIm may work better with higher voltages.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline mbarreto  
#7 Posted : 04 November 2017 21:36:23(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
According to your answers, I conclude that the M* statement saying that the 100VA PS is for Gauge 1 and LGB and the 60VA is for HO and smaller scales seems to be a bit nonsense as the regulation is good. Indeed I think was too bad if it was different...
Same V, but more A with 100 VA. For 100 VA or 5 A you need appropriate wires.
Märklin say "don't do it" to avoid liability. Legalese, not nonsense.

Originally Posted by: mbarreto Go to Quoted Post
Relative to lower voltages for smaller scales in the Ecos seems to mean that for example N scale decoders need lower voltages. Is that also a misleading idea?
If you have 22 V track voltage then the decoder feeds short pulses of 20 V into the motor.
With 14 V track voltage there will only be 12 V pulses going to the motor. Lower voltages reduce motor wear.

The 60215 manual allows between 14 V DC and 24 V DC as input voltages. I guess 19 V is a "one size fits all" approach, but lower voltages would be better for N gauge while gauges I and IIm may work better with higher voltages.



Thanks Tom. Got it and agree.
I just add that for M* it is also better to sell 2x60VA PSs + 1xBooster than a single 1x100VA PS. Although both scenarios are not the same, in many situations a single 100VA is enough. Nevertheless I agree liability is the strongest point here.

In conclusion, I really got the answer I wanted from this thread and I can only thank once more to all that answered. Basically, with the appropriate wiring we can use the 100VA in H0 without any problems.
I also understood the issue with N scale.

Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


Offline mbarreto  
#8 Posted : 05 November 2017 11:18:39(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
This post is a divert from the subject of the thread.

It is 2 youtube videos of a garden Gauge 1 layout that doesn't use CS control or anything like it. It is Remote Controlled and some physical switches. On the live steam video he is using servos also.

For a layout of this size the electrical resistance of the track would demand that large diameter electrical wires feed the track in many points. Also the leafs that fall in the track create isolation between the track and the locomotive wheels when the loco goes over them, and would imply that for a track feeding system, regular and careful track cleaning was a must. I don't know how long the batteries can make a train go without a recharge. He is selling 2900mAh batteries, so maybe 1 hour? Of course depends on number of wagons, power of the locomotive, number of batteries, etc.

Seems the track being used is very resistant to weather. I don't know what track it is. Doesn't seem Märklin or Peco...


livesteam:
Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline mbarreto  
#9 Posted : 05 November 2017 11:27:02(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,257
The other video of my previous post is this one below with switches (not so remote controlled) + remote controlled sound:


Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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