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Offline SteamNut  
#1 Posted : 23 October 2017 08:23:37(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 457
I was reading an article that perhaps in the future batteries will be used to power our locomotives which would life a bit easier for the average hobbyist. Certainly cleaning track in tunnels would be eliminated. Perhaps solar power could be used for all power needs and our hobby can be Green certified - Fred
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Offline Unholz  
#2 Posted : 23 October 2017 08:35:59(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,094
Location: Switzerland
This is not merely the future, such a system already exists: https://www.cvpusa.com/airwire_system.php
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Offline Chook  
#3 Posted : 23 October 2017 08:57:06(UTC)
Chook

Australia   
Joined: 15/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 227
Location: Perth, Western Australia.
I read recently in a magazine (Whats new in electronics) that a scientist in the US has discovered an improvement in the manufacturing process of Lithium batteries. Currently the lithium is glued onto the aluminium plates within the batteries and this glue is resistive which reduces the electrical contact and thus the efficiency. His new process uses a lithium based paste which is deposited onto the aluminium using electrolysis thus giving 100% contact and full exposure to the electrolyte solution within the battery. It is claimed to give an immediate 25% increase in the battery efficiency. It also improves the heat transfer characteristics of these batteries.

Regards..........Chook.
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Offline Kapalua  
#4 Posted : 23 October 2017 11:28:29(UTC)
Kapalua

Denmark   
Joined: 22/08/2017(UTC)
Posts: 73
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
I was reading an article that perhaps in the future batteries will be used to power our locomotives which would life a bit easier for the average hobbyist. Certainly cleaning track in tunnels would be eliminated. Perhaps solar power could be used for all power needs and our hobby can be Green certified - Fred


Running Locomotives with batteries would spoil it for me. The whole charm with Marklin, is old school AC and particularly Analog in this Digital Age.

I'm for progress in nearly all fields but the day Marklin run with rechargeable batteries or Solar Power etc.. that would be a shame.Smile
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Offline rmsailor  
#5 Posted : 23 October 2017 11:54:21(UTC)
rmsailor

Scotland   
Joined: 20/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 476
Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife
Might perhaps be of use in large scale outdoor layouts where in combination with radio control it would bring back the simplicity of spring drive (clockwork) with no electrical complications.

Bob M.
Offline RayF  
#6 Posted : 23 October 2017 13:04:49(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,332
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: SteamNut Go to Quoted Post
I was reading an article that perhaps in the future batteries will be used to power our locomotives which would life a bit easier for the average hobbyist. Certainly cleaning track in tunnels would be eliminated. Perhaps solar power could be used for all power needs and our hobby can be Green certified - Fred


Hi Fred,

This is not the future, this is already here!

Marklin's "My world" range have battery powered, digitally controlled trains and battery powered digital wireless controllers, all rechargable. This could easily be extended to more "adult" trains at any time if Marklin wished to follow that direction.

There are also commercially available Solar powered battery chargers if one wants to be super green.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline SteamNut  
#7 Posted : 23 October 2017 16:41:30(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 457
Yes the future is here, perhaps I should have said, when in the future what we are using now will become obsolete.
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Offline mrmarklin  
#8 Posted : 23 October 2017 20:56:45(UTC)
mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 761
Location: Burney, CA
Batteries?Blink

I’d be happy if they put capacitors in the lighting kits!Crying
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline kweekalot  
#9 Posted : 23 October 2017 22:32:19(UTC)
kweekalot

Netherlands   
Joined: 27/06/2012(UTC)
Posts: 3,201
Location: Holland
In the 70s my Lego trains with the blue tracks were battery powered (4,5 Volt).
Played many hours with them.


UserPostedImage

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Offline Kapalua  
#10 Posted : 23 October 2017 22:41:40(UTC)
Kapalua

Denmark   
Joined: 22/08/2017(UTC)
Posts: 73
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Originally Posted by: kweekalot Go to Quoted Post
In the 70s my Lego trains with the blue tracks were battery powered (4,5 Volt).
Played many hours with them.


UserPostedImage



Laugh Same, had those trains too. For kids trains, batteries is the way to go, just don't want to see my 3015 powered by AAA rechargeable batteries.
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Offline Minok  
#11 Posted : 24 October 2017 20:58:10(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,926
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Rechargable battery technology isn't there yet for this to work on larger (non-trivial) layouts with more than a loco or two. Batteries are still consumable items (need to be replaced every year or two) and not inexpensive depending on the type. Some can be prone to fire if not manufactured or charged correctly. Both things I'd NOT want in an extensive collection that is stored inside of a room not monitored 24/7 for a runaway. If and when the battery breakthrough happens, or fuel cells become a thing at H0 scale, then it would be an option.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
MrB32  
#12 Posted : 27 October 2017 10:58:35(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
What would be the point of batteries??? The tracks will still be there... a user friendly digital system would really be progress. Batteries would just add to the complexity, actually they might even be a step back, bringing trains nearer to their clockwork ancestors...

Offline Leitner  
#13 Posted : 27 October 2017 11:38:33(UTC)
Leitner

Macau   
Joined: 25/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 268
With batteries you can run on any track without trouble with ac/dc and of power in general..
Ep. III (My layout is set in 1962).
I collect mainly DSB, DB and SBB but I'm quite... Open minded.
I'm quite a big collector of NOHAB lok :)
MrB32  
#14 Posted : 27 October 2017 11:43:40(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
Sure, but you would have to remember to charge your trains... Great.... this is silly.
Offline SteamNut  
#15 Posted : 27 October 2017 12:20:50(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 457
You might not have to remember to recharge if they can get the run time to be about 4-5 hours. When you park your engines overnight it can be out on recharge mode. That said they will have to pry my transformer from my dead cold fingers also.
Offline SteamNut  
#16 Posted : 27 October 2017 12:28:17(UTC)
SteamNut

United States   
Joined: 11/05/2013(UTC)
Posts: 457
You might not have to remember to recharge if they can get the run time to be about 4-5 hours. When you park your engines overnight it can be out on recharge mode. That said they will have to pry my transformer from my dead cold fingers also.
Offline Pmare4  
#17 Posted : 27 October 2017 12:38:08(UTC)
Pmare4

Australia   
Joined: 15/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 222
Location: Queensland, Brisbane
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
they might even be a step back, bringing trains nearer to their clockwork ancestors...


Clockwork a step back!!!!! Blink Confused Huh Cursing

As someone who also collects clockwork Hornby trains I find that statement very confronting. LOL Flapper

Here's a picture to show the realism and scale accuracy of clockwork trains compared to Marklin H0:

3086+no1.jpg

The other advantage is you use no electricity and so save hundreds every year on power bills.

regards
Peter Cool

Peter
Collecting vintage Märklin from 1935-1970, also Hornby O Gauge
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Offline RayF  
#18 Posted : 27 October 2017 14:00:28(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,332
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
If moving to battery operation is a step back then we should all still be tethered to our home phones!

The whole point of battery operation is that you are independent of power collection problems, freeing you from the need for cables to feed the tracks as well as the need to adhere to one of the standards in place (AC, DC, 2 rail, 3 rail etc). You also do away with problems associated with poor connection between the tracks and the trains, so your rails can get as rusty as you like!

For these reasons battery systems are popular on outdoor model railways.

Don't forget that many HO model railways already feature a rechargeable battery system if they operate the Faller car system.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Minok  
#19 Posted : 27 October 2017 17:14:47(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,926
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post


Don't forget that many HO model railways already feature a rechargeable battery system if they operate the Faller car system.


If car systems had a reliable inductive power pickup and could get rid of the battery (or had super capacitor recharging that went super fast) they would dump batteries in an instant. The battery is the problem in the car system and limits the ability to use sports cars and other small cars on the systems. The need to carry around a large power storage tank is a major limitation in those systems.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline Leitner  
#20 Posted : 27 October 2017 22:32:19(UTC)
Leitner

Macau   
Joined: 25/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 268
I'm just elaborating but, with induction technology, a recharging track, is doable.
Ep. III (My layout is set in 1962).
I collect mainly DSB, DB and SBB but I'm quite... Open minded.
I'm quite a big collector of NOHAB lok :)
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MrB32  
#21 Posted : 27 October 2017 22:40:36(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
The point of a battery is to have access to power where no grid is available.... If you have 2 locos and an oval, fair enough, my lego train in the seventies was running this way. I just find the application in the H0 model train scenario conceptually more of a hindrance than anything else. What use is the ability not to have clean tracks in tunnel, if I have to go and rescue a train whose battery has run out from there for example? What happens if you have 20 locos? Which one do I charge first? How long does it take? The spontaneous choice of taking a model out its box and run it is no longer possible.

Let's go further and look at digital operations: not only would one have to find a good enough battery for locomotives and rolling stock, but also have to think about a way to get the digital signal to the loco, may be someone will do this using some form of pickup shoe :)
You might be doing away with feeder tracks, but you still need to power accessories, occupation sensors etc etc, and this is the type wiring that is the most complex so I don't see a real benefit there. Additionally where would the fun be if the contact problems suddenly disappeared? :)



MrB32  
#22 Posted : 27 October 2017 22:42:22(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by: Pmare4 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MrB32 Go to Quoted Post
they might even be a step back, bringing trains nearer to their clockwork ancestors...


Clockwork a step back!!!!! Blink Confused Huh Cursing

As someone who also collects clockwork Hornby trains I find that statement very confronting. LOL Flapper

Here's a picture to show the realism and scale accuracy of clockwork trains compared to Marklin H0:

3086+no1.jpg

The other advantage is you use no electricity and so save hundreds every year on power bills.

regards
Peter Cool



I was talking about autonomy here... nothing else Laugh
MrB32  
#23 Posted : 27 October 2017 22:43:55(UTC)
Guest


Joined: 06/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 284
the solution to make our hobby green certified is already here :)

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall
Offline Minok  
#24 Posted : 27 October 2017 23:12:21(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,926
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Leitner Go to Quoted Post
I'm just elaborating but, with induction technology, a recharging track, is doable.


Yes, but the battery performance/capacity is still limiting. I cannot get enough battery into a 1:87 scale Porsche 911 to let it run on the track for very long if at all, and recharging by induction is still very slow compared to wired. The wing mirror contact surface used by MinWuLa is still a more ideal recharge.

If there were capacitors that could store a LOT of power (which then of course becomes a hazzard for shock/shorts), in a small form factor - and by definition be recharged quickly, I could see that one just has inductive recharge coils spaced under the streets in a pattern so vehicle are just topped off as they travel along, as an alternative to the more complex to install and higher power/expensive induction rails used in some model setups.

Then there's still the size of the induction pickup coil. But the direction is a good one. The technology and science just is not there yet to make it work.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline rrf  
#25 Posted : 27 October 2017 23:27:18(UTC)
rrf

United States   
Joined: 15/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 232
Location: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Hello,

My other addiction is RC Model Warship Combat. So I have a good bit of experience with battery technologies and keeping the family fleet powered. While there are some very good battery technologies available today that provide a high number of amp hours in small and/or light packages, you still have to charge them.

At multi-day events the family usually has five convoy ships (younger kids) and two or three warships (older kids & adults). Nightly charging is ~4 hours for two to three batteries per ship. Needless to say, I have quite a few chargers! I cannot imagine trying to keep all of the locomotives I play with regularly charged.

Bye,
Rob
Mackenrode Wende Bahn
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Offline Jabez  
#26 Posted : 27 October 2017 23:38:26(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 538
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post

If there were capacitors that could store a LOT of power (which then of course becomes a hazard for shock/shorts), in a small form factor


Heh, he, fun with Leyden jarsBlink

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline RayF  
#27 Posted : 28 October 2017 13:24:52(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,332
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Battery technology is improving all the time. I agree that the present capabilities fall short of our expectations, but who knows what the future holds? Remember the first mobile phones? BigGrin
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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