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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#1 Posted : 21 October 2017 11:46:01(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,251
Location: New Zealand
Today I went to power on my layout in order to test some new turnouts that are being installed. Imagine my horror when my CS2 appeared to be dead.....

It worked fine last time I had the layout powered up (a couple of weeks ago).

To cut the story short, I tried one of the power supplies powering one of my 60174 boosters (happens to be an ESU 90va Power Supply), and to my relief the CS2 powered up.

That cast suspicion on my 60061 power supply, which after some testing is confirmed as being dead. It was also warm to the touch on both sides, possibly warmer than normal.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever attempted to repair one of these supplies. It seems to be a mission just to even get it opened as there are no screws holding it together. I suspect it is clipped firmly together but have no idea whether it is designed to come apart, or is a sealed unit meant to be thrown away when it fails.
Offline Danlake  
#2 Posted : 21 October 2017 19:42:00(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,499
Hi John,

Exactly the same happened for me a few months ago...

I took my multi meter and tested the output from the plug - only 8-9 volt...

You are right the unit is sealed. I managed to open it by using a hawk saw and cutting it open in 2. Wanted to see if I could observe any burnt components but without luck and it went straight in the bin and order made for replacement in Europe (couldn’t find any in stock in New Zealand).

Mine was about 5 years old, so maybe they have a certain life span?

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
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Offline cookee_nz  
#3 Posted : 21 October 2017 19:56:48(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,421
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Today I went to power on my layout in order to test some new turnouts that are being installed. Imagine my horror when my CS2 appeared to be dead.....

It worked fine last time I had the layout powered up (a couple of weeks ago).

To cut the story short, I tried one of the power supplies powering one of my 60174 boosters (happens to be an ESU 90va Power Supply), and to my relief the CS2 powered up.

That cast suspicion on my 60061 power supply, which after some testing is confirmed as being dead. It was also warm to the touch on both sides, possibly warmer than normal.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever attempted to repair one of these supplies. It seems to be a mission just to even get it opened as there are no screws holding it together. I suspect it is clipped firmly together but have no idea whether it is designed to come apart, or is a sealed unit meant to be thrown away when it fails.


Dave, bummer it died, does it have the 4-pin plug already attached to connect to the CS2?

If so and you are going to bin it, I'd like to grab the cable, but worth checking with Clappers perhaps, it may be repairable depending on what is wrong with it.

Cookee

Edited by user 21 October 2017 23:58:10(UTC)  | Reason: Typos

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
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Offline clapcott  
#4 Posted : 21 October 2017 23:05:55(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,312
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
From experience I would focus on the plug first

1) pins pushed back within shroud
2) dry solder joint within the plug.

Re:1 If you have metered the pins, then you will probably have noticed if the pins have been pushed back. this situation arises if the plug is inserted upside down. Because , in normal plugging, this plug has a rather stiff detent, users may push harder than they should.

Re:2 this will show up when the cable close to the plug is flexed, and may even be intermittent.
Peter
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 22 October 2017 04:18:58(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,251
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Hi John....


Confused Confused

Well, that is my second name, so I guess I can let that pass...

Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
From experience I would focus on the plug first

1) pins pushed back within shroud
2) dry solder joint within the plug.

Re:1 If you have metered the pins, then you will probably have noticed if the pins have been pushed back. this situation arises if the plug is inserted upside down. Because , in normal plugging, this plug has a rather stiff detent, users may push harder than they should.

Re:2 this will show up when the cable close to the plug is flexed, and may even be intermittent.


There is no voltage at all on any of the pins. Likewise on the track if I use it with a booster.

Pins are not pushed back.

I did wonder about the cable / plug, as from time to time bumping the cable when plugged into the CS2 caused the CS2 to lose power. I had wondered if that was the socket in the CS2, but maybe it was the plug / cable.

Either way, the power supply has been deaded!
Offline MaerklinLife  
#6 Posted : 22 October 2017 05:52:13(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Mine was about 5 years old, so maybe they have a certain life span?

My personal experience with switched mode power packs, in any shape or form not just Märklin, is that they will stop working at some point in time. This happens faster when they are left "always on".

I got an explanation once, so excuse my rusty way of explaining it: The reason is some component in side that "dries up" so to speak. When left always on, the component works just fine for years and years, then at some point you might need to shut the power off, when the power comes back on the component does not work any more. The power kept it alive, but the constant power also slowly kills it so to speak. If you often shut the power off, you will hardly ever see this problem.

I am not sure that the above is what happened, but some users only turn off the Central Station, they never turn off the power source. If that is the case, eventually, it will die. It happens often with network routers and stuff that uses the same type of power supply. It will work until it looses power, then it dies, but in reality it was dead long before that. That is also why the problems seem random.

To mitigate against this, simply perform a controlled shut down of the power source from time to time and the problem should never materialize. For the sake of the environment, shut the layout off completely when not in use, if not for anything, then for the planet. Smile
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Offline Chook  
#7 Posted : 22 October 2017 06:21:23(UTC)
Chook

Australia   
Joined: 15/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 234
Location: Perth, Western Australia.
I hate hearing these stories of failed switch mode power supplies. I am a child of the 60's where we used iron core transformers for our power supplies and they rarely failed. The lie of the efficiency of switch mode always brings a smile as they do run run cooler and are lighter but must be replaced much more often which negates the efficiency argument.
Maerklin for life is probably on the right track with the faulty capacitor diagnosis. As a professional tech I have on rare occasions opened these sealed units without damaging their casings but wont go into detail of that process here. And of course once you get into these units you really have to know what you are doing as they generally have in the order of 300vdc floating around within. These capacitors are also specific as they are low ESR types (effective series resistance) which reduce the AC ripple to give a clean DC voltage. The electrolyte they use internally will eventually dry out which causes high ripple and subsequent heating of these capacitors.

Dave it sounds like Clappers or Cookee may be savvy enough to repair your unit over there. These power supplies will be very similar to the standard computer power supplies which certainly Cookee will be familiar with. (I hope I haven't "dobbed" you in).

Regards..........Chook.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 22 October 2017 06:56:15(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,251
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post
I'd like to grab the cable...

Cookee


Sure, if it turns out to be unrepairable. The cables are available as a spare part - E120722. Dion has them in stock for $29.95.

I always power down the layout and controllers and unplug them when they're not being used.

Edited by user 24 October 2017 01:12:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline xxup  
#9 Posted : 22 October 2017 07:19:32(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,035
Location: Australia
Now we have our lesson in "Conflict of Interest".

David can get his power supply repaired by Cookee or Clappers, but Cookee has a "Conflict of Interest" as he really wants the cable. Clappers on the other hand has no obvious "Conflict of Interest", so he would be the best person to fix David's power supply. This, my friends, is how Government tendering works. It is not about the best person to do the job, it is the one with no "Conflict of Interest". LOL They lay awake at night with their signed copies of "Yes Minister" to dream up stuff like this..
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Online PJMärklin  
#10 Posted : 22 October 2017 07:25:57(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,526
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: Chook Go to Quoted Post
... I am a child of the 60's where we used iron core transformers for our power supplies and they rarely failed. ...


Hello Chook,

Without wishing to sound like an aged curmudgeon, I am a child of the 50's and agree with you.

In my own limited experience I have built my layout with track powered by 3 transformers which I bought from the local electrical store and this is propagated to the tracks via a 6021 system with boosters, keyboards and memories. There are three other transformers for other power supplies to various other parts and modalities of the layout (the cheapest being an outdoor garden lighting transformer)
Whilst my layout is rather small and less complex compared to the many grand ventures displayed on this wonderful forum, I have had no troubles whatsoever with this setup and can immediately control 8 trains running isochronously. As you may have seen from my recent posts I am endeavouring to ensure that I am free of future problems from the rechargeable memory batteries but no issues thus far.
I read on this great forum however of frequent issues with CSwhatevers and power supplies Scared and continue to be happy with my KISS situation.BigGrin

But please note I am very much of the view "to each his own" and I value the various opinions on this forum from which I have gained much learning !

Regards,


PJSmile


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage


UserPostedImage



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Offline kiwiAlan  
#11 Posted : 22 October 2017 13:55:43(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,087
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Chook Go to Quoted Post

Maerklin for life is probably on the right track with the faulty capacitor diagnosis. As a professional tech I have on rare occasions opened these sealed units without damaging their casings but wont go into detail of that process here. And of course once you get into these units you really have to know what you are doing as they generally have in the order of 300vdc floating around within. These capacitors are also specific as they are low ESR types (effective series resistance) which reduce the AC ripple to give a clean DC voltage. The electrolyte they use internally will eventually dry out which causes high ripple and subsequent heating of these capacitors.

Dave it sounds like Clappers or Cookee may be savvy enough to repair your unit over there. These power supplies will be very similar to the standard computer power supplies which certainly Cookee will be familiar with. (I hope I haven't "dobbed" you in).

Regards..........Chook.


I would like to hear your process for opening sealed units, at some stage. My findings are that it depends how much glue was used, or else they have been RF welded, both of which are impossible to get apart without sawing at some point.

It could be dried up electrolytics, but that normally starts to show up as intermittent operation of the appliance (in this case a CS2). I have a PVR which I need to dig into to fix flakey operation, and my suspicion is dried up electrolytics in the power supply. If this proves to be the case in the 60061 don't replace just the one, replace all electrolytics as they will all have dried up to some degree. Also use the highest rated temperature ones you can get (generally 105C) as this greatly affects how long they will last.

However a sudden failure like this causes me to think that there is probably a semiconductor failure, typically one of the diodes rectifying the mains voltage, but can often be the transistor doing the switching. This will then also blow the fuse that is there to protect the main supply.

Reasons for such a failure can be many and varied, but often relate to a spike occurring because you happen to switch on just at the peak of the AC waveform. It is also just as likely to be natural failure though - nothing (including iron cored transformers) lasts forever. The transformers mentioned over here caused me problems, as I had to get them 'tropicalised' as they are going to spend something like 75% of their life in storage over the next 25 years, to minimise the likelihood of failure.

When a semiconductor fails then it pays to replace a whole heap of devices as many of them will also have been stressed, which will lead to early failure after repair if not replaced.

And when doing such repairs, make sure you use an isolating transformer to supply the switch mode supply - it is all to easy to inadvertently touch something with lots of volts on it, and that power socket on the wall is as close to an ideal voltage source as you are likely to find anywhere.
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Offline xxup  
#12 Posted : 22 October 2017 22:17:49(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,035
Location: Australia
Personally, at A$139 for a new one, I would not be touching the thing at all. Your life is worth more than A$139..
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
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Offline stevend  
#13 Posted : 23 October 2017 23:07:12(UTC)
stevend


Joined: 25/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 24
Location: Christchurch,
Hi,

We'll have more in stock next week...

If you had contacted us...we would be been able to lend you one till yours arrived ; ). I have extras just for this purpose.

Just another benefit for supporting your local dealer, which enables the local dealer to hold stock on the shelf.

We ship every month....if we know by the end of the month and it is not in stock we'll include in.

Kind Regards
Dion









Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Hi John,

Exactly the same happened for me a few months ago...

I took my multi meter and tested the output from the plug - only 8-9 volt...

You are right the unit is sealed. I managed to open it by using a hawk saw and cutting it open in 2. Wanted to see if I could observe any burnt components but without luck and it went straight in the bin and order made for replacement in Europe (couldn’t find any in stock in New Zealand).

Mine was about 5 years old, so maybe they have a certain life span?

Brgds Lasse


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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#14 Posted : 29 October 2017 09:28:51(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,251
Location: New Zealand
The only way to get inside the case.....

20171029_143955.jpg

Well, that and the use of an oscillating tool for the ends of the case

20171029_145427.jpg

View from top

20171029_145433.jpg

Circuit board removed from case

20171029_150857.jpg

Rear side of circuit board

20171029_150951.jpg

Couldn't see any obvious component failures, so may require someone more knowledgeable to look at it. Peter also had a look, the pins on the plug were pushed back, which may have caused a short. Could not see any obvious dry joints or other issues.
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Offline Goofy  
#15 Posted : 29 October 2017 09:59:58(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,264
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Mine was about 5 years old, so maybe they have a certain life span?

My personal experience with switched mode power packs, in any shape or form not just Märklin, is that they will stop working at some point in time. This happens faster when they are left "always on".

I got an explanation once, so excuse my rusty way of explaining it: The reason is some component in side that "dries up" so to speak. When left always on, the component works just fine for years and years, then at some point you might need to shut the power off, when the power comes back on the component does not work any more. The power kept it alive, but the constant power also slowly kills it so to speak. If you often shut the power off, you will hardly ever see this problem.

I am not sure that the above is what happened, but some users only turn off the Central Station, they never turn off the power source. If that is the case, eventually, it will die. It happens often with network routers and stuff that uses the same type of power supply. It will work until it looses power, then it dies, but in reality it was dead long before that. That is also why the problems seem random.

To mitigate against this, simply perform a controlled shut down of the power source from time to time and the problem should never materialize. For the sake of the environment, shut the layout off completely when not in use, if not for anything, then for the planet. Smile


The power source of the DC are limited under the span life.
It´s also difference from the AC trafo.
I use AC trafo for my Lenz digital system.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#16 Posted : 29 October 2017 11:01:01(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,251
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
The cables are available as a spare part - E120722.


The plugs can also be purchased, as per Peter's post (#21) in this thread - https://www.marklin-user...S-2-Shut-Down--Sometimes

https://www.jaycar.co.nz...n-mini-din-plug/p/PP0362

Offline nevw  
#17 Posted : 02 April 2018 07:43:15(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,007
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
[
PJ, that is one great Layout.
👍
wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Online PJMärklin  
#18 Posted : 02 April 2018 11:46:15(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,526
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: nevw Go to Quoted Post
[
PJ, that is one great Layout.
👍


Thank you for your kind comment Nev,

Regards,

Philip
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#19 Posted : 29 March 2020 00:44:15(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,251
Location: New Zealand
I ended up binning the faulty power supply and purchased 2 more.

I've just noticed from the Lokshop and Marklin websites that 60061 and 60065 are no longer in production.

Does anyone know what is replacing them?
Offline bph  
#20 Posted : 29 March 2020 00:55:33(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post

I've just noticed from the Lokshop and Marklin websites that 60061 and 60065 are no longer in production.

Does anyone know what is replacing them?


They are replaced by 60041, 60042 and 60045
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