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Offline kiwiAlan  
#1 Posted : 03 October 2017 10:59:31(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,081
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Australian ore train travelled 100km without a driver onboard - but it was supposed to.

Rio tinto have been operating fully autonomous trains for a while with a driver on board for safety reasons, but are now going to run them without drivers as no-one wants to work out beyond the Black Stump.
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 03 October 2017 11:18:31(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,243
Location: New Zealand
As the guy from Faller pointed out in the latest Marklin TV episode (86), Faller have had autonomous cars for years.......!
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Offline MaerklinLife  
#3 Posted : 03 October 2017 15:01:59(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
As the guy from Faller pointed out in the latest Marklin TV episode (86), Faller have had autonomous cars for years.......!


Yeah, if following a permanently laid out magnetic strip in the road is autonomous...
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#4 Posted : 03 October 2017 20:20:10(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,243
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post

Yeah, if following a permanently laid out magnetic strip in the road is autonomous...


No, you're wrong! The reference was to the fully digital system which uses mini satellites and GPS to control the vehicles. No magnetic strip used.
Offline Minok  
#5 Posted : 03 October 2017 21:46:09(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,152
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post

Yeah, if following a permanently laid out magnetic strip in the road is autonomous...


No, you're wrong! The reference was to the fully digital system which uses mini satellites and GPS to control the vehicles. No magnetic strip used.


The Faller Car system uses iron wire (upgraded solutions use a magnetic strip) embedded in the roadways. Thats the path the cars follow. There are electromagnets that bend sections or redirect the leading edge stearing magnet on the stearing racks to make turns. But the satellite system is only there for two things - to get location triangulation (so you can see where the vehicles are and slow or speed up or make decisions about turns) and send commands to the cars (to turn on lights, turn signals, speed up slow down, stop etc). The cars have no freedom on where on the road they want to drive., that is fixed in the roadbed.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#6 Posted : 04 October 2017 08:29:28(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 17,243
Location: New Zealand
Yes, Clapcott corrected me on the track usage question when I saw him tonight.
Offline ShannonN  
#7 Posted : 04 December 2017 13:17:37(UTC)
ShannonN

Australia   
Joined: 14/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 477
Location: Maryborough, Qld
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post

Yeah, if following a permanently laid out magnetic strip in the road is autonomous...


No, you're wrong! The reference was to the fully digital system which uses mini satellites and GPS to control the vehicles. No magnetic strip used.


The Faller Car system uses iron wire (upgraded solutions use a magnetic strip) embedded in the roadways. Thats the path the cars follow. There are electromagnets that bend sections or redirect the leading edge stearing magnet on the stearing racks to make turns. But the satellite system is only there for two things - to get location triangulation (so you can see where the vehicles are and slow or speed up or make decisions about turns) and send commands to the cars (to turn on lights, turn signals, speed up slow down, stop etc). The cars have no freedom on where on the road they want to drive., that is fixed in the roadbed.


When I worked for Lansing Bagnall in Lidcombe (Aust) in the late 80's they were laying wiring in many new warehouses embedded in concrete floors) to allow slow moving flatbed cart for order picking Maybe Faller stole their idea?


Offline GaryTrooper  
#8 Posted : 12 September 2019 06:58:50(UTC)
GaryTrooper

United States   
Joined: 26/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 248
Location: Hailey, Idaho
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post


The Faller Car system uses iron wire (upgraded solutions use a magnetic strip) embedded in the roadways. Thats the path the cars follow. There are electromagnets that bend sections or redirect the leading edge stearing magnet on the stearing racks to make turns. But the satellite system is only there for two things - to get location triangulation (so you can see where the vehicles are and slow or speed up or make decisions about turns) and send commands to the cars (to turn on lights, turn signals, speed up slow down, stop etc). The cars have no freedom on where on the road they want to drive., that is fixed in the roadbed.


Can you explain to me how some Faller cars have stop detection without the satellite digital controller? Do you have obtain the full Faller digital control system to have a few car just follow each other without running into each other like in this video?

G - LGB
O - Lionel and MTH
HO - Marklin
N - Mix of manufacturers mostly Kato
Offline kiwiAlan  
#9 Posted : 12 September 2019 16:08:22(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 5,081
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: GaryTrooper Go to Quoted Post

Can you explain to me how some Faller cars have stop detection without the satellite digital controller? Do you have obtain the full Faller digital control system to have a few car just follow each other without running into each other like in this video?


Haven't watched the video, but right from the start Faller Car System had a reed switch in series with the motor, which was normally closed, so the motor would run once switched on. Then by putting magnets under the road the reed switch could be operated to switch the motor off. By using electromagnets the motor could be controlled at traffic lights and railway crossings.

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Offline GaryTrooper  
#10 Posted : 12 September 2019 17:44:04(UTC)
GaryTrooper

United States   
Joined: 26/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 248
Location: Hailey, Idaho
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


Haven't watched the video, but right from the start Faller Car System had a reed switch in series with the motor, which was normally closed, so the motor would run once switched on. Then by putting magnets under the road the reed switch could be operated to switch the motor off. By using electromagnets the motor could be controlled at traffic lights and railway crossings.




Thanks Alan,

It appears the car system has evolved to include infrared sensors in each vehicle for stopping but I am not able to find information about this system. Faller is now pushing their digital satellite control system so I am wondering if the the infrared detection system in each vehicle was a design step between the under roadway stopping magnet and the satellite control system.
G - LGB
O - Lionel and MTH
HO - Marklin
N - Mix of manufacturers mostly Kato
Offline Minok  
#11 Posted : 12 September 2019 20:59:43(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,152
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: GaryTrooper Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post


The Faller Car system uses iron wire (upgraded solutions use a magnetic strip) embedded in the roadways. Thats the path the cars follow. There are electromagnets that bend sections or redirect the leading edge stearing magnet on the stearing racks to make turns. But the satellite system is only there for two things - to get location triangulation (so you can see where the vehicles are and slow or speed up or make decisions about turns) and send commands to the cars (to turn on lights, turn signals, speed up slow down, stop etc). The cars have no freedom on where on the road they want to drive., that is fixed in the roadbed.


Can you explain to me how some Faller cars have stop detection without the satellite digital controller? Do you have obtain the full Faller digital control system to have a few car just follow each other without running into each other like in this video?



What this video shows is hardware that has been added onto the Faller Car system vehicles that is not provided by Faller.

The Faller Car system has, as mentioned, a reed switch in the car which can cut the power from the battery to the motor. Under the roadway you would install electromagnets which you could then turn on via a decoder. When the car goes over the turned-on electromagnet, the magnetic field opens the reed switch and the car stops. When you turn off the electromagnet, the reed switch closes and the car proceeds. This system is used to stop cars at rail crossings or in bus-stops. It does NOT, however provide a way for keeping cars following other cars from running into each other. One a purely Faller (as they produce it) installed system you don't have cars following each other very closely, but cars running on different loops, like analog operated trains. You rely on the wide spacing between cars, and the ability to stop cars along the way to maintain that spacing, to keep them from running into the back of each other.

What you see in the video you provided, is similar (if not an example of) an infra-red analog to the magnet/reed switch start/stop mechanism, but instead uses infrared diodes and transistors to detect the presence of something. Notice the 'violet lights' on the back of the cars, those are probably IR diodes that a sensor in the bumper of following cars can detect. When a following car gets close enough to a vehicle ahead of it to detect that back-end, it can slow/stop to prevent a collision. A good version of such a control system can use the signal strength to proportionally reduce the power to the car's motor, thus as you get closer, you gradually slow down rather than just a hard stop. The LED the person in the video covered with paper, stops the first car in the chain (and others if the LEDs are uncovered), and once the first one moves away, the following ones then also move away as the IR source in front of them (the bumper of the car in front of them) has moved away.

Enhanced solutions to the basic analog Faller car technology use decoders; DC Car and there were others I think, which allow transmission of control data to cars via IR as well. So the IR solutions provided intercar spacing (so one can run them realistically in a traffic pattern bumper to bumper), but then one can also from roadside LED transmitters send commands to the car's onboard decoders. This then allows cars to turn on headlights at a tunnel entrance (and of at the exit), or turn on turn signals on the appropriate side ( your layout controller is setting the intersection to have the next car turn right, so the IR signal along the road also sends out a command to turn on the right turn signal). The positioning and aim of such transmitters is critical of course, to ensure only the one vehicle you want gets the signal (ie if only the first car is turning right, you don't want the 3 cars following it to also turn on the right turn signal if they will go straight or turn left).

This area of enhanced car (though mostly they are buses, trucks, vans, because you need that valuable space volume to put batteries, unless you do a home brew solution like we see in another thread where power is picked up from an under-roadway power system electromagnetically)... control, is a developing technology. To get realistic road traffic in density is possible, but not trivial.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline GaryTrooper  
#12 Posted : 12 September 2019 22:11:05(UTC)
GaryTrooper

United States   
Joined: 26/01/2018(UTC)
Posts: 248
Location: Hailey, Idaho
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post


What this video shows is hardware that has been added onto the Faller Car system vehicles that is not provided by Faller.

This area of enhanced car (though mostly they are buses, trucks, vans, because you need that valuable space volume to put batteries, unless you do a home brew solution like we see in another thread where power is picked up from an under-roadway power system electromagnetically)... control, is a developing technology. To get realistic road traffic in density is possible, but not trivial.


Thank you for the detailed response. I see now the IR control is an "add on" so that is why I was not able to find information in Faller documentation.

So I'm guessing the next traffic enhancements might be the IR dection system controlling a pulse width modulator instead of a reed switch, with differing acceleration and deceleration rates, feed back control loops, etc. We've come a long way from watching a train run around an oval.

Thank you again for the detailed description. It's very helpful.

Gary
G - LGB
O - Lionel and MTH
HO - Marklin
N - Mix of manufacturers mostly Kato
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Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 13 September 2019 21:45:11(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,152
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Its hard to say what Faller will do in house, vs the efforts such as DCCar/OpenCar decoders. The pure Faller solutions are a bit more power efficient as the small battery doens't have to also power a decoder on the vehicle. The magnetic stripe in the road bed (as opposed to the steel wire) is a non-Faller alternative that is more attractive - yes the install is more complex (eg req making sure the ends of the magnet strips sections go down at the ends for magnetic field reasons) but the benefit is you can bend the vehicle front guide magnet bar up to keep it from sliding on the road surface (it can hover) which reduces the road surface wear effects to only where the wheels/tires run.

I've got a plan to put a car system on my layout, and like a lot of technology, each year one waits, the technology gets a bit better, so maybe by the time I get there in several years, some of the issues will be solved.

The satellite location system isn't an option for me (I think) as my layout will be 2 or 3 levels that run along the walls, so not all cars will be in line with the satellites and I don't have a reasonable way of hanging them. So I'm leaning toward the DCCar/OpenCar solutions that would let me put little IR transmitter/receivers in roadside lamp posts and reflector guide posts, etc.

The two issues I'm hoping may slowly get addressed are:
1) Power - so if a commercial below road inductive power solution becomes available that would be great. Otherwise an available charging station system, where you can drive the cars/vehicles into a gas station (say into a car wash) and in there it gets charged by some servo controlled contacts, or underground in a a garage/tunnel/shadow station.... but the solutions used here are all proprietary so far.

2) Size - building small cars is a really hard model challenge. Eg make a Porsche 911 running car or most passenger cars are a real problem to just fit a motor in there.. where does one put a battery? Of course power by induction can address that. Magnarail (where a chain driven magnet system pulls ars) isn't viable as it just locks all cars into fixed spacing. I'd love to have taxis parked in front of a train station occasionally pull out to drive customers around and disappear into the scenery - to later come back. For now I'll be constricted to city busses.

Edited by user 01 October 2019 22:14:45(UTC)  | Reason: Added OpenCar as alternative to DCCar

Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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