Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline soundon  
#1 Posted : 25 June 2017 03:58:54(UTC)
soundon

Canada   
Joined: 25/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario, Peterborough
Hi all! Newbie here. I got this train set as part of a larger purchase of HO trains. Any info is helpful. I have checked the inside of the box for date stamp or numbers and found nothing. There's 42 pieces of track (numbered 5100). And a switch panel. Don't see a transformer. See pics.
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

Edited by moderator 28 June 2017 08:26:46(UTC)  | Reason: Updated title - Mod

Offline foumaro  
#2 Posted : 25 June 2017 05:37:58(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,340
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
First time i see a 3062 New Haven locomotive in a vintage starter set.There is one old USA starter set but it have ATSF locomotive similar to 3060 marklin model,difficult to find.I do not remember the number,maybe is 3160 but i am not sure.I think that the cars of the set are the same we see in your photo.
Offline foumaro  
#3 Posted : 25 June 2017 05:41:50(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,340
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by foumaro
Offline foumaro  
#4 Posted : 25 June 2017 05:44:13(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,340
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Look at the post 19,i found it.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by foumaro
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 25 June 2017 05:52:02(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 16,719
Location: New Zealand
I included the scan of the 1961 catalog page that this set is in in the above thread, but also include it here.

Capture.JPG
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline soundon  
#6 Posted : 25 June 2017 06:00:01(UTC)
soundon

Canada   
Joined: 25/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario, Peterborough
Thanks Foumaro! That is some nice info there. Strange not being able to find any of these sets online really. Looks like it didn't come with a transformer, so that's not missing.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by soundon
Offline soundon  
#7 Posted : 25 June 2017 06:25:50(UTC)
soundon

Canada   
Joined: 25/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario, Peterborough
Thanks Bigdaddynz! That's nice to have.
Offline foumaro  
#8 Posted : 25 June 2017 07:39:18(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,340
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Both ses are hard to find.I tried to win an auction two years ago for a 3160 set,it was in perfect condition.The winning bid was over 350 euro,I lost it.I have never see the 3162 on eBay.I do not know if there is a transformer included in the set but it is a starter set and it must be one included.Maybe another member can help.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 25 June 2017 07:57:55(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 16,719
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
I do not know if there is a transformer included in the set but it is a starter set and it must be one included.Maybe another member can help.


From the set description in the catalog, there is no transformer included with the set. Transformer has to be purchased separately, which was pretty much normal with these larger sets.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Bigdaddynz
Offline scarfo  
#10 Posted : 25 June 2017 10:08:24(UTC)
scarfo

India   
Joined: 06/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 33
Location: Goa/India
Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: foumaro Go to Quoted Post
I do not know if there is a transformer included in the set but it is a starter set and it must be one included.Maybe another member can help.


From the set description in the catalog, there is no transformer included with the set. Transformer has to be purchased separately, which was pretty much normal with these larger sets.


Hi - just to add an observation to this thread, I've got one of the 3160 sets which as far as I know is complete. Definitely no transformer - no space in the box anyway. 3160 comes with santa-fe loco, and my set has an ATSF bogie caboose in place of one of the reefers pictured, which I always thought was correct but wait to be contradicted.
Regards
Charles from Goa
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by scarfo
Offline Mark_1602  
#11 Posted : 26 June 2017 19:00:58(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 631
Location: Luxembourg
Hi all,

Märklin used to sell train sets in old boxes like the one on the picture above in the 1950s and early 1960s, but those were not starter sets. M-tracks were included, but never a transformer.

It's true that such sets may be sold at very high prices, but only if they are truly original, in mint or near-mint condition and complete, including all M-tracks, styrofoam or cardboard insets, as well as the instruction manual (or even the quality control tag). However, the item shown above is none of these, so it is virtually worthless. I'd say less than a hundred dollars, but I wouldn't even pay 50 for it because those items were probably never sold together and the New Haven F7 is in very poor condition. Is it a 3062.1? Does it have the raised buffer at the front?

In the 2005 edition of the Mikado Märklin Edition, a collector's catalogue, there's a picture of the 3162 set produced in 1962 and 1963. It's supposed to consist of the rare 3062.1 (with the raised middle buffer!!) in a styrofoam inset, four freight cars (4570, 4571, 4572, 4575), each in a yellowish cardboard inset, 12 straight M-tracks as well as 12 curves (one of which can be connected to a transformer), as well as a 3060/3062 instruction manual from the early 1960s. Obviously the 3162 set is extremely rare in mint & original condition and and would be sold at a very high price if it turned up on Ebay or at an auction house in Germany.

Best regards,
Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 26 June 2017 19:37:57(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,440
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I have a lot of these old catalogues, and they show that these sets are clearly intended to be sold as starter sets. I believe they were sold without transformers so that the customer could choose between the 16VA and the 30 VA versions, depending on whether they were planning to expand the set or not.

I was quite young at the time but I remember going into the local Marklin dealer that existed then with my Dad and looking at the different sets available. My own starter set (3100) consisted of a 3000 loco and three 4000 coaches with a circle or oval of track.

I would have loved one of the sets that contained a larger steam loco but my Dad preferred adding miles of track rather than more trains. He only ever bought me an additional 3000 loco and a 4601 gondola, and that was the extent of my trains for many years.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Mark_1602  
#13 Posted : 26 June 2017 20:52:24(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 631
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I have a lot of these old catalogues, and they show that these sets are clearly intended to be sold as starter sets.


Hi Ray,

I agree with you that they might have been intended for beginners as well, but Märklin also sold real starter sets with transformers in the 1960s. The 1964 catalogue includes two of those, i.e. 2953 and 2973; it explains on page 29 that the second set (2973) had been announced as a new item in 1964 because Märklin had sold 400,000 copies of set 2953, which was first produced in 1960 according to the Mikado catalogue. The product numbers starting with 29 distinguish these sets from the 31xx or 32xx sets without transformers.

Best regards,

Mark

P.S. Actually, the Märklin catalogues from the 1950s and early 1960s refer to the 31xx sets as train sets (Zugzusammenstellungen). The first 29xx starter sets were also initially called "Zugzusammenstellungen", but in my 1967 and 1970 catalogues I found the expression "Anfangsgarnituren" for those. In the first update to the 1947 catalogue published in 1948, there is a starter set (RS790/3) that includes a transformer which was packed separately as it would not have fitted into the box of the train set; it was referred to as the first table railway for the youngest member of the family. Other sets in old catalogues usually came without transformers and used to be called "Geschenkpackungen" (gift sets). Even in the 1978 catalogue, Märklin did not use the word "Startpackung" for the 29xx starter sets that all included transformers but still called them "Geschenkpackung" or "Spielpackung", so that term must have come into use later.

Edited by user 27 June 2017 06:18:45(UTC)  | Reason: information in P.S. corrected

MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mark_1602
Offline cookee_nz  
#14 Posted : 26 June 2017 22:00:57(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,100
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: soundon Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Bigdaddynz! That's nice to have.


If your box still had the original label on it you would know for sure...

This is the 3160 label only for clarity, but 3162 would be the same style

M3160.jpg

And this is what the 3162 original set would have looked like. Some people (who shall remain nameless) enjoy re-constructing these original sets. It'
s true they are not 'original' as such, but if you happen to acquire an empty box, well you just have to fill it.

3162-2.jpg

3162-3.jpg

I have two similar vintage sets from the late 50's / early 60's, mine are original (ie not reconstructed) and I think they are awesome.

Cheers
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 5 users liked this useful post by cookee_nz
Offline Mark_1602  
#15 Posted : 27 June 2017 06:05:30(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 631
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post


I have two similar vintage sets from the late 50's / early 60's, mine are original (ie not reconstructed) and I think they are awesome.

Cheers


Hi,

That's really intriguing. Would you mind posting pictures of the front side of the locomotive as well as of the two bogies seen from below? What's the printing code on the instruction manual? Does the F7 have a manual reversing lever?

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline cookee_nz  
#16 Posted : 27 June 2017 09:05:37(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,100
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Go to Quoted Post


I have two similar vintage sets from the late 50's / early 60's, mine are original (ie not reconstructed) and I think they are awesome.

Cheers


Hi,

That's really intriguing. Would you mind posting pictures of the front side of the locomotive as well as of the two bogies seen from below? What's the printing code on the instruction manual? Does the F7 have a manual reversing lever?

Best regards,

Mark


Hi Mark,

Sorry might have been slightly ambiguous there, when I said similar, I meant the box style and vintage, but different sets.

I have set 3205 and 3118.

Set 3205 has the 3005 Steam Loco and 3 passenger coaches, 4022, 4024 & 4026

Set 3118 is Swedish with the 1957-only 3018 Electric Loco, 2 x 4040 and 1 x 4021 coaches.

Hope this clarifies.
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
Offline foumaro  
#17 Posted : 27 June 2017 09:08:08(UTC)
foumaro

Greece   
Joined: 08/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 4,340
Location: Attiki Athens Greece
Amazing sets Stephen.LOL Love ThumpUp Wub
Offline cookee_nz  
#18 Posted : 28 June 2017 03:44:09(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,100
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: Mark_1602 Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

Märklin used to sell train sets in old boxes like the one on the picture above in the 1950s and early 1960s, but those were not starter sets. M-tracks were included, but never a transformer.

It's true that such sets may be sold at very high prices, but only if they are truly original, in mint or near-mint condition and complete, including all M-tracks, styrofoam or cardboard insets, as well as the instruction manual (or even the quality control tag). However, the item shown above is none of these, so it is virtually worthless. I'd say less than a hundred dollars, but I wouldn't even pay 50 for it because those items were probably never sold together and the New Haven F7 is in very poor condition. Is it a 3062.1? Does it have the raised buffer at the front?

In the 2005 edition of the Mikado Märklin Edition, a collector's catalogue, there's a picture of the 3162 set produced in 1962 and 1963. It's supposed to consist of the rare 3062.1 (with the raised middle buffer!!) in a styrofoam inset, four freight cars (4570, 4571, 4572, 4575), each in a yellowish cardboard inset, 12 straight M-tracks as well as 12 curves (one of which can be connected to a transformer), as well as a 3060/3062 instruction manual from the early 1960s. Obviously the 3162 set is extremely rare in mint & original condition and and would be sold at a very high price if it turned up on Ebay or at an auction house in Germany.

Best regards,
Mark


Here's an example of the same set in the updated Blue packaging.

https://new.liveauctione...n-amerik-zugpackung-3162

Pity the photo is not very clear, hard to tell if the box is faded or just a poor photo but it says this set sold for 1100 Euro!! Yikes. From what I can see this was back in 2011 but can't be sure of that.

I would expect there would be more examples of this set to be found in the US than Europe?

3162-new.jpg
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by cookee_nz
Offline cookee_nz  
#19 Posted : 28 June 2017 09:56:05(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,100
Location: Paremata, Wellington
This thread has also brought something else up.

Both the 3160 Santa Fe and the 3162 New Haven sets are to be found in Red and Blue boxes.

The 3160 & 3162 were both introduced as new items in 1961, the 3160 survived until 1969, however the 3162 only appeared again in the 1962 catalogue and then disappeared.

All the components of the set continued as individual items, just not as a complete set.

This would account for the rarity and value of this item, and if the Blue-box set image I posted above is accurate, it also indicates that the transition from the larger Red boxes to the smaller Blue ones took place between 1961 & 1962?

No doubt there was some overlap and most likely this has previously been discussed elsewhere on one of the German forums?

I'd also be wanting to see the lid of one of the 3162 boxes to see the printing. Otherwise it could be very easy to fake a 3162 set by using a 3160 box.

Cheers

Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Offline Mark_1602  
#20 Posted : 29 June 2017 19:39:21(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 631
Location: Luxembourg
Hi all,

Beware of those Liveauctioneers auctions of extremely rare items. Last year I bought an Italian Märklin set that never existed in reality (as I found out when it was too late!), though the private seller who put it on Ebay provided a link to Liveauctioneers. The same famous auction house based in Rüdesheim, Germany, (which sold the 3162 posted above) had sold a 3235 set about 6 years ago, claiming that it was a great rarity which had hitherto been unknown and was not listed in the collector's catalogues. There was actually a 3135 Italian set with passenger cars and a 3035, but there was never a freight car set with a 3035. The auction house claimed that the unknown 3235 set had been ordered by some Italian dealers in the early 1960s, but when I got my set, I quickly realized it had just been put together. Obviously, the seller refused to take it back and had not accepted Paypal.

This spring, I managed to sell it at a really low price, but I lost over 300 euros in the process as I couldn't claim that this set really existed. Don't believe such bogus claims about very rare items. I would only trust the lists in the 1992 or 2005 editions of the "Mikado-Handbuch Märklin 00/H0". If the set is not in there, it didn't exist. Those people who are interested in such sets can buy the 1992 edition cheaply on Ebay.de and check it out. It says that the 3162 set was only sold in 1961 and 1962, so I don't believe that the set in the blue box posted above is original. Don't trust famous auction houses because their so-called experts can get it wrong.

If an old Märklin item is really original, there is usually some circumstantial evidence, for example a box and instruction manual with matching dates, a quality control tag that was really used at that time, or matching wheels, chassis, slider, accessories, reversing unit etc. If there is one mismatch or if a few of the things I've mentioned are missing, chances are it isn't. Those sets are too easy to fake, and by the way, German auction houses refuse returns, just like private sellers. That's the law in Germany; buyers are supposed to inspect the items personally before they buy them ...

Best regards,
Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mark_1602
Offline soundon  
#21 Posted : 13 July 2017 20:07:05(UTC)
soundon

Canada   
Joined: 25/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario, Peterborough
Hey guys, forgot to check in for a bit. UserPostedImage
Offline soundon  
#22 Posted : 13 July 2017 20:08:21(UTC)
soundon

Canada   
Joined: 25/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario, Peterborough
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by soundon
Offline soundon  
#23 Posted : 13 July 2017 20:20:03(UTC)
soundon

Canada   
Joined: 25/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario, Peterborough
UserPostedImage

Just a note about the Box the set is in, I don't see any printing in the inside lid but the box sure seems old. I know that doesn't tell us much.
Offline kiwiAlan  
#24 Posted : 14 July 2017 18:10:41(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,545
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: soundon Go to Quoted Post
UserPostedImage


That is one very well mangled pickup shoe. It definitely needs replacing.

Offline Mark_1602  
#25 Posted : 16 July 2017 19:20:08(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 631
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: soundon Go to Quoted Post
Hey guys, forgot to check in for a bit. UserPostedImage


Hi,

I'm pretty sure that '3162' has been rewritten (or reprinted?); underneath it, there seems to have been another product number that was partially erased but is still visible. It's really obvious if you have a close look at the '1' as well as the '6'. The latter even looks as if it might have been handwritten.

Since this thread was started some weeks ago, I've been trying to find out more about it, but so far all the pictures I've seen in forums or on Google feature a 3062.2. According to the Mikado Märklin Edition, a well-established German collector's catalogue, it should be a 3062.1, which still had a middle buffer above the front coupler. This set was only sold up to 1962 or 1963, but the 3062.2 (without the middle buffer) was first produced in 1964, so what I've seen so far hasn't convinced me!

On one forum dedicated to vintage trains, a well-off collector that I personally know showed off his 'new' 3162 set, but his New Haven isn't a first version either; that guy can afford to buy any model he wants, but in this case he's been fooled as well. Many vintage collectors only see what they want to see and eagerly buy fakes; in the last few years, I've had to sell a number of vintage Märklin locomotives because I found out some time after the purchase that they weren't original ...

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Mark_1602
Offline soundon  
#26 Posted : 17 July 2017 06:20:10(UTC)
soundon

Canada   
Joined: 25/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario, Peterborough
I think my mind is officially blown, I like this adventure and possible conspiracy.

My gut tells me this set has never been around a real train collector, it's well used ... it's hard for me to picture something about it being faked but lord knows a lot of things have been faked before! I tried to get in close on the label and peel back some of the tape over it (which I thought might be smearing it) but the label looked like it was gonna peel off with the tape so I stopped. The older gentlemen that sold me a bunch of train sets really didn't seem to place any special attention to this one so it's hard to imagine him messing with the label, but maybe before him? who knows.
Offline Mark_1602  
#27 Posted : 17 July 2017 19:25:07(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 631
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: soundon Go to Quoted Post
I think my mind is officially blown, I like this adventure and possible conspiracy.

My gut tells me this set has never been around a real train collector, it's well used ... it's hard for me to picture something about it being faked but lord knows a lot of things have been faked before!


Hi,

Most vintage items that are on sale nowadays are either in poor condition or not original.

Can you please tell us if the locomotive in there is a 3062.1 or a 3062.2? Please show us some pictures of the set and the locomotive. One thing I've noticed on this forum as well as on others is that users post questions or information about vintage trains without taking the right photos. A picture of an old set or locomotive lying in the box doesn't say much, but that's all most people show. It's all the little details that tell you if a vintage locomotive or set is original, but most people don't pay attention to those: wheels (rounded flanges or not), slider (silver or partially copper), motor, wiring and reversing unit, printing codes on boxes or instruction manuals, etc.

You've said that your set is really used. It's true that it wouldn't be interesting for forgers in this condition, so the number on the label might have been accidentally damaged and rewritten by one of the previous owners. If the locomotive is really a first version and the freight cars are the right ones, it might have been a 3162. Is there an instruction manual? That might also reveal something. Are all the items in the set in the same (used) condition? If not, it's probably been reassembled. Is there a polystyrene inset for the F7? If yes, is it yellowish at the top? That would tell you that it was really sold together with an old vintage set, because Märklin often painted them yellow to match the colour of the yellow cardboard subdivisions inside those old red boxes.

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline soundon  
#28 Posted : 21 July 2017 16:54:19(UTC)
soundon

Canada   
Joined: 25/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario, Peterborough
I'll get some more pictures when I have a chance. I'm sorry Mark 1602, just to reveal how much of a newbie I am, what is a "middle buffer?". What am I looking for here? Thanks again, really appreciate it.
Offline Bayer  
#29 Posted : 17 August 2017 15:12:40(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi all

I find this thread quite interesting since information about the set 3162 is quite scarce. About four years ago I bought a similar set in Sweden. The set was put aside, and to be honest, I've not looked at it until I saw this post. Below you find some photos of my set:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

On the lid of the box there is traces of red paint, which corresponds well with the rubbing from the locomotive:
UserPostedImage

The locomotive does not have the raised middle buffer, but does have a lever for the reverse unit. This variant is not mentioned in either Koll's or mikado's, but my guess is that it is in fact an intermediate version made in 1963/1964.

To my knowledge no other Märklin sets have the same partitioning of the box as the 3160 and 3162. This makes the set quite difficult to forge and you would need a 3160 box and then make the "0" to a "2" or you have to change the partitioning to match that of the 3160 and 3162. sets.

It would be interesting to see some more pictures of the other set.

Kind regards,
Thor
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Bayer
Offline kiwiAlan  
#30 Posted : 17 August 2017 18:33:15(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 4,545
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
looks like an old box has been used, with a three digit plus one alpha catalogue number over printed with the four digit number - it looks like it could be an M under the digit 2.


Offline Bayer  
#31 Posted : 18 August 2017 10:54:49(UTC)
Bayer


Joined: 16/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 176
Location: Helsingør, Denmark
Hi again

I will just quickly summarize my thoughts.

After looking at the box again I see no signs of fiddling around with the cardboard inserts. The two inserts in the bottom are mounted to the side of the box using stables. These stables can not be mounted after the red paper on the outside of the box has been put on. I would therefore conclude that the box is with 100 percent certainty either a 3160 or a 3162 box. Again this is under the assumption that no other Märklin set has the same partitioning of the box as these two sets. Here are some closeups of the cardboard insert and the outside of the box where the stables are located:
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

I see no sign of the label being glued on at a later point and the imprint from the red crocodile-like paper is seen on the label as well. Neither do I see any signs of erasing an old number on the label as this, in my opinion, would leave the surface of the label distorted. Assuming that the label is original to this box and this set is forged using a 3160 set, there should at least be traces of a "0" at the last digit. That I do not see.

My guess is that there has been excess ink on the stamp as the label was made. This explains the smearing on the label. It should also be noted how the digits have a horizontal area in the bottom, where there is no ink. This is also the case for the label of the other 3162 set in this thread and for instance the set 3105 seen in the following link:
http://alte-modellbahnen...ng-echt-oder-falsch.html
Here we also have some smearing on the label and my guess is that no one will take the time to forge a 3105 set.

It should be noted that I have put the styrofoam insert in the box to protect the locomotive, so this one is not original to the set.

Kind regards,
Thor
Offline Mark_1602  
#32 Posted : 19 August 2017 18:31:10(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 631
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: soundon Go to Quoted Post
I'll get some more pictures when I have a chance. I'm sorry Mark 1602, just to reveal how much of a newbie I am, what is a "middle buffer?". What am I looking for here? Thanks again, really appreciate it.


Hi,

The 3060.1 in the photo posted below has a middle buffer underneath the Santa Fe decal which was meant to represent the (prototypical) automatic coupler that is standard in North America. Märklin adapted the mould of the F7 in 1964 to drop this protruding buffer, allegedly because it might get in the way of the Märklin Relex coupler. Märklin F7s with this buffer (either the New Haven or the Santa Fe) are rare and sought after if they are still in very good condition.

UserPostedImage

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Mark_1602
Offline Mark_1602  
#33 Posted : 19 August 2017 19:09:19(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 631
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: Bayer Go to Quoted Post


It should be noted that I have put the styrofoam insert in the box to protect the locomotive, so this one is not original to the set.

Kind regards,
Thor


Hi,

The box might be original (either a 3160 or a 3162 as you explain), but the trouble with these old sets is that this doesn't tell you if the items inside are. You only put the styrofoam inset in there to complete the set, but somebody else might have put another locomotive in there, or maybe the instruction manual to make it look more authentic.

According to the Mikado collector's catalogue, the F7 should be a first version, as this set was only made up to 1962 or 1963, so there's no evidence that this set was originally sold as it is now. If it wasn't, it's not original. Just give me an empty box of an old Märklin train set, and it would be quite easy for me to find the matching items to put inside. Maybe I have them in one of my cupboards, or I could buy them cheaply on Ebay as locos or cars without boxes usually sell cheaply. I collect instruction manuals and have a whole box full of vintage spare parts, including 'new' Märklin sliders, i.e. the nickel-plated ones made before 1975, and I could even use brushes and traction tires from the 1960s or 70s to make the loco look really authentic and near-mint, provided I could find one without any visible scratches.

In general, vintage items are only original if everything about them is 100% coherent. The condition of the slider must match that of the locomotive, for example. I own a number of vintage items that are truly authentic and have only been used a little, but you can tell that they are if you look at all the little details because there are no mismatches. I actually go as far as disassembling the motor to check how much a loco has really been used, I check the appearance of the brushes, the slider, the traction tires, the wiring, and look for scratches on the cogwheels of the gearbox ...

Let's imagine for a minute that your set was actually sold as it is now. It's not mint or near-mint, is it? That means it was not left in the box after it was sold, but used on a layout. Who bought F7s back then? Not collectors, but kids who usually scratched them badly or might have smashed them. Do you think the person who supposedly played with this train in the 1960s only had one copy of each freight car? If there were more New Haven cars, for example, which one was the one from the set?? Was the locomotive smashed, lost, or discarded? What ever happened to the box? It might have been forgotten in a cupboard together with other empty boxes, and after 1980, when collecting trains became more fashionable and prices for vintage items rose, some kind of seller might have bought them when the attic or basement was cleared after Grandpa died. It's often said now that many items are too cheap to be faked, but prices were a lot higher before the year 2000, especially if adjusted for inflation. Filling empty red train set boxes and selling them at a higher price must have been a profitable business in the 1980s or 1990s ...

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline vinder  
#34 Posted : 28 August 2017 03:51:39(UTC)
vinder


Joined: 16/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 41
Location: Houston, Tx
Just wanted to share these pictures of my 3162 set bought at an action some years ago. When I realized the original wrapping paper was present and had the numbers of the box cars stamped on it I decided not to play with this set. box has a tear in the edge of the cover but overall I think it is very nice. Enjoy the pics.

Best Regards
Al
3162 set.jpg3162 label.jpg
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by vinder
Offline Mark_1602  
#35 Posted : 30 August 2017 14:50:38(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 631
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: vinder Go to Quoted Post
Just wanted to share these pictures of my 3162 set bought at an action some years ago. When I realized the original wrapping paper was present and had the numbers of the box cars stamped on it I decided not to play with this set. box has a tear in the edge of the cover but overall I think it is very nice. Enjoy the pics.

Best Regards
Al


Hi,

Is there a 3062.1 or a 3062.2 in your set? It's not clearly visible on the photo. Can you tell us the code printed in the bottom left corner of the instruction manual? Your set really appears to be original as nothing is missing and that marked wrapping paper would be very hard to find anywhere.

Best regards,

Mark
MÄRKLIN 4ever!! (*)
(*) This signature refers to those M* items which are truly good quality.
Offline vinder  
#36 Posted : 11 September 2017 02:59:24(UTC)
vinder


Joined: 16/08/2004(UTC)
Posts: 41
Location: Houston, Tx
Hello Mark

Sorry about the delay we had a major flood in Houston so I have not had a chance to log in for a while. The 3062 locomotive does have the extra buffer indicating it is the first version. The owners manual shows a number on the left side as follows 68360 YA 0461 ka. Please let me know what you think.

Best Regards
Al
Offline soundon  
#37 Posted : 21 March 2018 01:30:04(UTC)
soundon

Canada   
Joined: 25/06/2017(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Ontario, Peterborough
Hey all, I listed this set on Ebay. Vintage Marklin Train
Offline cookee_nz  
#38 Posted : 21 March 2018 06:11:10(UTC)
cookee_nz

New Zealand   
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,100
Location: Paremata, Wellington
Originally Posted by: soundon Go to Quoted Post
Hey all, I listed this set on Ebay. Vintage Marklin Train


personally, I think you've set a realistic price, there are those who would have added another 0 as the reserve. Scared

Pity it's had such a hard life but they are not an easy set to find in any condition. Someone may already have some of the component pieces in better condition to swap out and there are those who hold to the view that ANY example is better than no example but is something to build from. I have a couple of start-sets with poor or missing items waiting for a better one to come along.

Such a shame the box and especially the label have been taped in that way, near impossible to now remove without damage. Book restorers can often work wonders with old cardboard boxes but this might be a stretch.

Good luck with it.

SteveThumpUp
Cookee
Wellington
NZ image
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2019, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.939 seconds.