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Offline GlennM  
#1 Posted : 17 April 2017 12:40:33(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
With my Insider package this month I received a fancy new brochure on the new Marklin signals and having downloaded the instructions for the 76496, I have a couple of questions I was wondering if anyone could answer, apologies if they have already been asked/answered previously.

So this is page 36 from the instructions which show the wiring diagram for connection to 3 rail C track;


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Question 1;

With these new signals, when a train is being held at a red signal, is the isolated section completely without power or does the signal provide a trickle current to maintain the digital decoder and provide sound, smoke, lights etc,; or does this modification still need to be wired separately?

Question 2;

With the older M signals it was possible to utilise contact tracks/reed switches and the like to allow for automatic block operation, ie: train passes point A signal is set to red, train passes point B signal is released back to green, see this extract from the Märklin signalling book titled - 'The HO Signal Book - 03402';


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This type of wiring setup does not seem to be possible with these new signals as there does not appear to be any direct input to the signal to carry an input signal from contact tracks so as to change the signal aspect to either red or green, and that all operations have to be carried out electronically with the digital address of the signal, Have I understood this correctly? and if not can someone please explain how I would wire the signals to operate in a 'conventional' manner.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

BR
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 17 April 2017 21:44:19(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Re 1: When the signal is red, the track will be dead.
If there is enough power for sound then there also is enough power for the motor.
There still is no braking module included.

Re 2: The connection between circuit tracks and new signals for analogue operation can easily be made with CS3 and L88.

Older thread where no cheaper solution was found:
https://www.marklin-user...-disappointed#post517841

The new control box 72760 is a digital controller and AFAIK these signals can be used in digital mode only.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline clapcott  
#3 Posted : 18 April 2017 03:19:16(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post

Question 1;

... when a train is being held at a red signal, is the isolated section completely without power or does the signal provide a trickle current ...

It is completely without power - no trickle current is inherently available.


Warning, the following pin usage deviates from the suggested wiring as shown in the manual
The manual shows the common being used for power IN from the source, whereas the following refers to the common being used for the OUT to the track which is switched between the direct source and the trickle source.

However the relays are DPDT with each 3 pin connector offering ..
- a common pin (shown in schematic as top on the left "track" connector and bottom on the right "catenary" connector)
- - for feed to the track

- a normally open pin (centre connector)
- - for feeding the "red" directly from the transformer with the signal is turned on green

- a (unused) normally closed pin (bottom of left connector, top or right right)
- - that you MAY provide your own trickle power through i.e. from the controller PLUS a 1.5k Ohm resistor

Comment:
Yes, I know it is a latching relay and that NO and NC usage may be somewhat moot.
These relate to the state of the relay as if it is to indicate a TrackOFF = Red Hp0 state as the default state.
Peter
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Offline GlennM  
#4 Posted : 18 April 2017 12:52:21(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Re 1: When the signal is red, the track will be dead.
If there is enough power for sound then there also is enough power for the motor.
There still is no braking module included.

Re 2: The connection between circuit tracks and new signals for analogue operation can easily be made with CS3 and L88.

Older thread where no cheaper solution was found:
https://www.marklin-user...-disappointed#post517841

The new control box 72760 is a digital controller and AFAIK these signals can be used in digital mode only.


Thanks Tom for your comments. I think we agree that they are for digital operation only, whereas the older 763xx series did allow for conventional operation.

I would also note viz trickle power to the track, that the Marklin signal book recommends supplying trickle power via a 1.5 kilo ohm resistor to maintain memory function to the locomotive decoder. I have not personally done this, so hence my question.

BR
Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline GlennM  
#5 Posted : 18 April 2017 12:53:54(UTC)
GlennM

United Kingdom   
Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,877
Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post

Question 1;

... when a train is being held at a red signal, is the isolated section completely without power or does the signal provide a trickle current ...

It is completely without power - no trickle current is inherently available.


Warning, the following pin usage deviates from the suggested wiring as shown in the manual
The manual shows the common being used for power IN from the source, whereas the following refers to the common being used for the OUT to the track which is switched between the direct source and the trickle source.

However the relays are DPDT with each 3 pin connector offering ..
- a common pin (shown in schematic as top on the left "track" connector and bottom on the right "catenary" connector)
- - for feed to the track

- a normally open pin (centre connector)
- - for feeding the "red" directly from the transformer with the signal is turned on green

- a (unused) normally closed pin (bottom of left connector, top or right right)
- - that you MAY provide your own trickle power through i.e. from the controller PLUS a 1.5k Ohm resistor

Comment:
Yes, I know it is a latching relay and that NO and NC usage may be somewhat moot.
These relate to the state of the relay as if it is to indicate a TrackOFF = Red Hp0 state as the default state.



Thanks Peter ThumpUp

Don't look back, your not heading that way.
Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 18 April 2017 15:06:07(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
I would also note viz trickle power to the track, that the Marklin signal book recommends supplying trickle power via a 1.5 kilo ohm resistor to maintain memory function to the locomotive decoder.
Some decoders (e.g. 6080, 6090, some Delta) with mouse pianos need that resistor to remember the direction of travel.
No problem if you always run the locos in the default direction.
Theoretically the resistor is not needed for 60901 or later decoders.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline clapcott  
#7 Posted : 18 April 2017 22:11:20(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GlennM Go to Quoted Post
I would also note viz trickle power to the track, that the Marklin signal book recommends supplying trickle power via a 1.5 kilo ohm resistor to maintain memory function to the locomotive decoder.
Some decoders (e.g. 6080, 6090, some Delta) with mouse pianos need that resistor to remember the direction of travel.
No problem if you always run the locos in the default direction.
Theoretically the resistor is not needed for 60901 or later decoders.

I believe, from observation of some locos, that the use of a trickle current causes (or is one input for) the decoder to distinguish between an "off" section and a momentary loss of track power. The result is that a subsequent "green" of the signal controlling the dead section cause a slow start (as if from stop) rather than an immediate resumption of the original speed.

I know this is a decoder function and there are CVs for it, but as I said, it appears as though the trickle also has some influence in providing a nicer restart.
Peter
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Offline Rwill  
#8 Posted : 18 April 2017 23:33:05(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 777
Location: England, London
Despite all my whingeing and moaning I may well fall prey to the Marketing department of M and am seriously thinking of trying out a 76494 signal! I was also thinking of trying the 72442 braking module however the technical department that write the user manuals obviously don’t converse with the marketing department.

The user manual of the 72442 paint a strange picture; “this unit was designed for 37xxx and 39xxx loks – it is quite likely that 36xx, delta or loks with 6080 will misbehave under the braking module and M can’t say what will happen to any other make of decoder” and then it says, “this unit cannot be used with signal 76xxx at the time of these instructions were produced”

However, the user manual for the 76494 shows a diagram of how to connect 72442 modules to the signal so one of them must be right.

In all the blurb on the braking module no one mentions that it will keep the lok functions alive in the stop section – but I sure Tom is right at the moment I believe him rather than M technical department!

I currently operate M hobby signals digitally, 72xx signals through k83's and a couple of Veissmann through K83's only on the 72xx's do I use the little resistors supplied with 6083 decoder.
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 18 April 2017 23:44:15(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Rwill Go to Quoted Post
The user manual of the 72442 paint a strange picture; “this unit was designed for 37xxx and 39xxx loks – it is quite likely that 36xx, delta or loks with 6080 will misbehave under the braking module and M can’t say what will happen to any other make of decoder” and then it says, “this unit cannot be used with signal 76xxx at the time of these instructions were produced”
There is a big difference between 36xx (old digital locos without braking delay) and 36xxx - the latter have braking delay and should work well with the braking module.
There are old and new 76xxx signals and the manual might refer to the old signals (there should be a month/year code somewhere in the manual).

Originally Posted by: Rwill Go to Quoted Post
In all the blurb on the braking module no one mentions that it will keep the lok functions alive in the stop section – but I sure Tom is right at the moment I believe him rather than M technical department!
The braking module feeds DC to the loco - and locos with support for DC braking will stop with all active functions on.
A simple resistor is insufficient for this trick.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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