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Offline baggio  
#1 Posted : 25 February 2017 22:47:34(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hello, Everyone:

I have an old Marklin 3000 converted to digital using a Delta decoder.

When I first got it, about six months ago, it was running pretty well.

Then lately it stopped altogether as if there were no power reaching it. A bit later, it decided to go with a gentle nudge.

Now, again it refuses to move. Cursing

Inside all looks good - to my eye anyway - nothing obviously broken.

Any idea as to what I should try to do before taking it to Mike? BigGrin

Thanks.

Silvano
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 26 February 2017 00:13:31(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Hello, Everyone:

I have an old Marklin 3000 converted to digital using a Delta decoder.

When I first got it, about six months ago, it was running pretty well.

Then lately it stopped altogether as if there were no power reaching it. A bit later, it decided to go with a gentle nudge.

Now, again it refuses to move. Cursing

Inside all looks good - to my eye anyway - nothing obviously broken.

Any idea as to what I should try to do before taking it to Mike? BigGrin

Thanks.

Silvano


Have you tried changing the brushes?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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H0
Offline baggio  
#3 Posted : 26 February 2017 06:14:44(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
ME, changing the brushes? LOL

Sorry, Ray, the answer is no.

I have no idea how to do it and I doubt I will ever be able to. Blushing
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 26 February 2017 06:43:50(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
A bit later, it decided to go with a gentle nudge.
My first guess would be the brushes.
Changing them may not be required, but there should be no oil in the brush holders and the springs that push the brushes in should have enough tension.
I've had two locos where the springs had insufficient tension. The need for a nudge increased over time as brushes got shorter.

I understand you never replace the brushes. Not much you can do if you daren't take the brushes out and look for oil or dirt.
I assume the loco has DCM - but since you never replace the brushes I do not expect you to know the type of motor.

Each loco manual shows how to replace the brushes - at least for those locos where brushes can still be replaced by the user.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#5 Posted : 26 February 2017 07:25:12(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hi, HO:

I can see you are an early riser, while I go to bed late. BigGrin

Actually, I have been kept up by this loco.

I had a hunch that it might have something to do with the address, except that I thought even by mistake I could NOT change the address on a Delta decoder without physically playing with the coding switches.

As a result, I dusted off the good old faithful wireless remote set just to see if it worked on that set. IT DOES!

The lights flicker a bit, but I think that was there before and in any event the loco runs pretty well.

I then went in my basement and put the loco on my main set up where I have two MS2 units set up. NOTHING!

I tried changing the address via the software back to 78 - NOTHING.

I then tried to re-install the loco - still with address 78. NOTHING.

I went back upstairs and tried it again with the workbench wireless set up. Works fine.

Result: Cursing Cursing Angry Angry Confused Confused

I am going to bed. I will let Mike figure it out.

Thanks anyway to both you and Ray for helping out. Much appreciated. BigGrin

Offline baggio  
#6 Posted : 26 February 2017 15:39:13(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
In re-reading my post of last night I noticed that it sounds as if I wanted to end the discussion here.

That is not what I meant, sorry. I was just frustrated that this loco is acting up apparently without a logical explanation.

As a result, if anyone has any suggestions, I would like to hear it.

Thank you.

Have a good Sunday.

Silvano
Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 26 February 2017 16:10:39(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
In re-reading my post of last night I noticed that it sounds as if I wanted to end the discussion here.

That is not what I meant, sorry. I was just frustrated that this loco is acting up apparently without a logical explanation.

As a result, if anyone has any suggestions, I would like to hear it.

Thank you.

Have a good Sunday.

Silvano


Take the loco body off by removing the single screw in the dome on top of the boiler. The body should then lift off quite readily.

The motor is inside the cab area. You can see the two spring wires that keep the brushes in their holders. Lift these up and slip them outside the brush holder. Note that one wire will have the end turned at 90 degrees, the other is a straight wire.

You should now be able to tip the loco over and have the brushes slide out. You may need to give it a tap or two to achieve this.

If the brushes are shorter than an 1/8" then they will need replacing. The brushes are supplied as pairs, and if I remember correctly the part number you want is 60030 which has one carbon brush and one gauze brush.

When putting brushes in the spring wire with the end turned at 90 degrees is the one for the gauze brush, and the bent end should go down the hole in the middle of the brush. The carbon brush should have a slot in the end and its spring wire will sit in this slot when correctly positioned. It won't matter which end of the gauze brush goes in first, but the carbon brush has a slot in one end only.

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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 26 February 2017 16:30:52(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
The MS2 has a pretty mature bug: when the first loco at the bottom of the display is DCC (sometimes an mfx loco here also causes the problem) then locos with MM decoder will no longer work.

Workaround: select an MM loco at the first position at the bottom of the display and then disconnect the wallwart for 10+ seconds.

See also:
http://blog.mailez.de/eb...n-with-mobile-station-2/

Note: this explanation fits the "works with IR controller but not with MS2" problem description.
This does not fit the "works after a nudge" problem description.
But maybe you have two problems at the same time ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 26 February 2017 16:33:47(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Brushes for the 3000 are either 600300 or 601460, depending on when it was made. DCM since 1996, SFCM before 1996.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#10 Posted : 26 February 2017 17:50:11(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Well, I followed both suggestions (thank you again), but neither one worked.

The first one was easy to try. I even erased one loco (MFX, I do not have any DCC locos in the list for now), and replaced it with the address 78 for this loco and the new 30000.

The sick loco did not budge, no lights on, dead. The 30000 worked like a charm.



So, with some trepidation, I performed the open heart surgery. I removed the cover (this I had done before) and looked to see where these brushes were.

After a tad of looking I found them.

I saw the two wires that kept them in place and, one at a time, pushed them aside.

The one on the left, the copper one, was about 1/4 of an inch long and I put it back,. In putting it back, the brush seemed to unravel a tad, so I tried to re-shape it and put back in place. I then slipped the wire back on. Before putting it back on I also cleaned a bit the end of the brush, the one that touches the bottom of the "channel". I put the loco back on the track: still dead.

I did much the same thing with the dark-coloured brush - also about 1/4 of an inch long. Put the loco back on the track: still dead.

Bottom line: I now have a great paper weight! Scared

The funny thing is this loco worked a short while ago with the MS2 set up! Confused

The good thing is that I actually LEARNED how to change the brushes. ThumpUp ThumpUp

That in itself is a very good thing that I may be able to use in future. BigGrin



Anybody need a paper weight? LOL
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H0
Offline eroncelli  
#11 Posted : 01 March 2017 12:04:08(UTC)
eroncelli

Italy   
Joined: 16/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 124
Location: Bergamo - italy
Make a test with analog supply (any Marklin transformer can be used for the job).
If not working (i.e. the decoder doesn't work) repeat the test with two wires directly connected to the motor.
A possible cause might be the winding/coil that you see close to the motor: a broken wire is possibly causing the problem.
Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 01 March 2017 12:09:34(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
It could be anything. Without more to go on it's difficult to give any further advice. Maybe it's time for a trip to the dealer...
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline baggio  
#13 Posted : 01 March 2017 13:27:54(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
As a result, I dusted off the good old faithful wireless remote set just to see if it worked on that set. IT DOES!

The lights flicker a bit, but I think that was there before and in any event the loco runs pretty well.


Hi, Eroncelli: since the loco works with the wireless remote, then I can assume the motor works.

Hi, Ray: I think you are probably right. I do wonder, however, if the cost of the repair is worth the value of the loco.


Thanks again to all of you for your feedback - MUCH appreciated. BigGrin
Offline RayF  
#14 Posted : 01 March 2017 13:56:20(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
As a result, I dusted off the good old faithful wireless remote set just to see if it worked on that set. IT DOES!

The lights flicker a bit, but I think that was there before and in any event the loco runs pretty well.


Hi, Eroncelli: since the loco works with the wireless remote, then I can assume the motor works.

Hi, Ray: I think you are probably right. I do wonder, however, if the cost of the repair is worth the value of the loco.


Thanks again to all of you for your feedback - MUCH appreciated. BigGrin


Silvano, I missed the fact that it works with the wireless controller. If this is the case then there can't be anything wrong with the loco. Maybe you should take both the loco and the MS2 to your dealer and see if he can figure out why it's not running on the MS2.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline baggio  
#15 Posted : 01 March 2017 14:04:42(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Maybe you should take both the loco and the MS2 to your dealer and see if he can figure out why it's not running on the MS2.


Thanks, Ray. That gives me the idea of using my new MS2, the black one from the starter set, to try it on a separate oval, not connected to the main layout, and see what happens. Maybe I'll do that during the weekend.
Offline H0  
#16 Posted : 01 March 2017 14:06:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Another classic fail issue: swapped red and brown wires. Also does not fit the "decided to go with a gentle nudge" description, but then maybe there are two independent problems.

Silvano, were the wires between trackbox and track off since the 3000 had her last run?
Red goes to B (centre rail) and brown goes to 0 (outer rail) on C track.

Modern locos are still working when red and brown are swapped.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#17 Posted : 01 March 2017 14:15:24(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Silvano, were the wires between trackbox and track off since the 3000 had her last run?
Red goes to B (centre rail) and brown goes to 0 (outer rail) on C track.



Hi, Tom: That is a possibility - I will investigate, thanks. (I also wonder if that could have an effect on the DCC Ice Train that causes a short in the new MS2).

Also, I added a station platform that has lights (very nice) and I wonder if that, too, may or not have a negative effect.

What I did notice is that when I tried to program the locos, the lights of the platform go down A LOT, but this has no effect on the programming (to change address).

I also tried changing the address on the loco in question and re-adding it as a new loco, always with the same address: 78.


I also keep only MFX locos on the layout when I program.

Adventures in running Marklin digital trains. But maybe that is also, in a twisted way, part of the fun. BigGrin
Offline H0  
#18 Posted : 01 March 2017 15:09:26(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
I also keep only MFX locos on the layout when I program.
When programming DCC or MM locos, you should only have that particular loco on the track - no station lights, no turnout decoders, no mfx locos should draw current.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#19 Posted : 01 March 2017 16:40:27(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
When programming DCC or MM locos, you should only have that particular loco on the track - no station lights, no turnout decoders, no mfx locos should draw current.


Thank you, HO, that is news to me.

I was under the impression that the only thing I should not have on the track were other Fx/DCC locos.

Maybe this explains something, but I am not sure what.
Offline baggio  
#20 Posted : 04 March 2017 22:20:00(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Another classic fail issue: swapped red and brown wires. Also does not fit the "decided to go with a gentle nudge" description, but then maybe there are two independent problems.

Silvano, were the wires between trackbox and track off since the 3000 had her last run?
Red goes to B (centre rail) and brown goes to 0 (outer rail) on C track.

Modern locos are still working when red and brown are swapped.



Well, Tom, you were absolutely right!


Today I went to Mike's and the loco was not moving on his track BUT Mike pointed out to me that the lights were going on and off as directed by the CS he uses.

After some doing, and adding a tad of oil, the loco went about pretty well. BigGrin


So, I go home, put the loco on the track, NOTHING, no lights, no movements!!!!!! Cursing
The other locos, however, were doing just fine.

However, I remembered what Tom had suggested, and I swapped the wires on the piece of track that connected the layout to the MS2.


IT WORKED THE FIRST TIME!!!! BigGrin BigGrin


Thank you, Tom. ThumpUp ThumpUp

After a bit of running the loco is back to its normal form.

The lights still flicker a bit, but Mike indicated that there is nothing I can do with the decoder I have, a C80.

(But, oddly enough, after some high speed running, the lights seem to flicker less. Regardless, I am happy with the loco, flickering lights or not, since it is a robust work horse that pulls wagons well.)



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Offline kiwiAlan  
#21 Posted : 04 March 2017 22:59:22(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
So, I go home, put the loco on the track, NOTHING, no lights, no movements!!!!!! Cursing
The other locos, however, were doing just fine.

However, I remembered what Tom had suggested, and I swapped the wires on the piece of track that connected the layout to the MS2.

IT WORKED THE FIRST TIME!!!! BigGrin BigGrin

Thank you, Tom. ThumpUp ThumpUp

After a bit of running the loco is back to its normal form.

The lights still flicker a bit, but Mike indicated that there is nothing I can do with the decoder I have, a C80.

(But, oddly enough, after some high speed running, the lights seem to flicker less. Regardless, I am happy with the loco, flickering lights or not, since it is a robust work horse that pulls wagons well.)


Good to hear it is running fine now. As already noted it is a characteristic of that decoder that the lights will flicker. The amount and pattern of flickering will be dependant on what else is being sent messages by the command station - in your case the mobile station. This could be part of the reason why you have the impression the flickering is getting less.
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Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 05 March 2017 08:53:23(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
As already noted it is a characteristic of that decoder that the lights will flicker.
Don't blame the decoder, blame the wiring of the lamps. Change the wiring and the flickering ends.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#23 Posted : 05 March 2017 10:08:00(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
As already noted it is a characteristic of that decoder that the lights will flicker.
Don't blame the decoder, blame the wiring of the lamps. Change the wiring and the flickering ends.



Those decoders do not have a separate ground wire for the lamps, so those users who are not expert enough to find the right point on the decoder to attach a ground wire will be mystified. Also you need a certain amount of manual dexterity to replace the original bulb holder with the bi-pin socket needed for this extra wire, so it is not surprising that many will find it a daunting task to change the wiring.

I say blame the decoder for not being prepared for the flicker-free wiring!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline H0  
#24 Posted : 05 March 2017 10:42:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I say blame the decoder for not being prepared for the flicker-free wiring!
Blame the company that made the specifications for those cost-optimised decoders.
Blame the new controllers for causing much more flickering than the old controllers.

The flickering can be cured without replacing the decoder. Use two diodes if you do not want to attach a wire to the decoder.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline baggio  
#25 Posted : 05 March 2017 16:17:02(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Thank you for your feedback, guys, much appreciated as always. ThumpUp

As far as my attempting to change the wiring, well, in another lifetime, maybe.

I would need some very serious hand-holding to get me to attempt to do that.

The last time I tried to fix a loco, I destroyed it; so, no, I won't attempt to do that. Blushing

Have a great Sunday. BigGrin
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Offline PJMärklin  
#26 Posted : 06 March 2017 08:04:16(UTC)
PJMärklin

Australia   
Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC)
Posts: 2,206
Location: Hobart, Australia
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post



The lights still flicker a bit, ..................... there is nothing I can do with the decoder I have, a C80.





UserPostedImage



Regards,

PJ ThumpUp
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H0RayFbaggio
Offline H0  
#27 Posted : 06 March 2017 08:19:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Those decoders do not have a separate ground wire for the lamps, so those users who are not expert enough to find the right point on the decoder to attach a ground wire will be mystified.
I had forgotten: Orange is the new black.

The black wire on these old decoders is the same as the orange wire on new decoders - the plus terminal, the common return for function outputs.
So flicker-free light with a c80 is simpler than flicker-free light with a c90 where you have to find the Waterstone pad.

The Zener Diode is only needed if you keep the original light-bulbs. It is not needed if you install 22 V light bulbs instead.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#28 Posted : 06 March 2017 08:57:14(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Those decoders do not have a separate ground wire for the lamps, so those users who are not expert enough to find the right point on the decoder to attach a ground wire will be mystified.
I had forgotten: Orange is the new black.

The black wire on these old decoders is the same as the orange wire on new decoders - the plus terminal, the common return for function outputs.
So flicker-free light with a c80 is simpler than flicker-free light with a c90 where you have to find the Waterstone pad.

The Zener Diode is only needed if you keep the original light-bulbs. It is not needed if you install 22 V light bulbs instead.


I was not aware of this. You learn something new every day!

However you still have to change the lamp holder to accomodate a bi-pin socket and re-wire the lamps, which is beyond the skills of many people. Still, it's good to know that you can get at least one advantage with the old 6080 decoder. Smile
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline eroncelli  
#29 Posted : 06 March 2017 16:56:47(UTC)
eroncelli

Italy   
Joined: 16/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 124
Location: Bergamo - italy
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I say blame the decoder for not being prepared for the flicker-free wiring!
Blame the company that made the specifications for those cost-optimised decoders.
Blame the new controllers for causing much more flickering than the old controllers.

The flickering can be cured without replacing the decoder. Use two diodes if you do not want to attach a wire to the decoder.


That's an old decoder, very old: so, don't blame for the old technology.
For the same price, one can buy a 4th generation decoder !!

Offline baggio  
#30 Posted : 07 March 2017 04:45:11(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Hi, Eroncelli:

I thought the power hog problem came from the motor, not the decoder.

Did I miss something?

Incidentally, today I ran again the Delta/C80 loco and once again, I can ONLY run that loco PLUS the entertainment car PLUS the lights on the station platform. The moment I add a train, kaput, the MS2 goes in tilt. Sad

I have not yet tried to run it without the platform lights. That is next.
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