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Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#1 Posted : 21 February 2017 03:33:49(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,863
Location: CA, USA
Hi everyone,

I just installed a 64610 Lokpilot V4.0 Decoder into a HAG AE 6/6 that had an ancient Zimo(?) decoder which failed.

Installation went well, and we are up and running. The only problem is we are not running well...

Acceleration and deceleration are really jerky. Once at speed the loco runs well.

Any ideas on how to tune? I did the setting CV 54 to Zero and hitting F1 trick, but that didn't seem to do anything. (and I say that with the caveat I've never tried the CV54 trick before)

Thanks!I'm using my ESU ECOS 50001
SBB Era 2-5
Offline river6109  
#2 Posted : 21 February 2017 03:46:42(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
first is your loco a DC or AC loco, all my HAG loco are DC and I have no problem whatsoever with them, it seems to be the same with Märklin locos converting them from a analog to a digital version by changing the coil magnet only.
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 21 February 2017 04:18:47(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,880
Location: Montreal, QC
Was this an AC or a DC Lok? Who did the original conversion? AFAIR Hag models have always had either Digitraxx or ESU decoders installed from the factory.
Was the old decoder hard wired or does the locomotive have a 8 or 21 pin socket? Most Hag digital loks delivered with the above decoders were already outfitted with the magnet and set up for digital operation, so there should not be any additional equipment required.

The locomotive as original converted/set up may respond best when used with a controller that used AC power and may be a little wonky at slow speed (DC only).

A few more questions...

1) Have you tried the locomotive using analog?
2) Do you have an older 6021? How does the lok respond to that controller?
3) From what I remember, ECOS can send MM and DCC commands. Which one are you using to control the lok?

I wonder if there is a preset Ae 6/6 setting that you can download (from Hag or ESU) for that lok? There is the LokSound profile #64474. I wonder if that has all the motor presets as well as the sounds?

Can you do all programming from the ECOS or do you still need a standalone Lokprogrammer?

I would try to get in touch with Jacques Vuyes. I think he is the foremost digital expert here.

Regards

Mike C


Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#4 Posted : 21 February 2017 04:44:21(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,863
Location: CA, USA
Hi all, the locomotive is DC motor-ed, (meaning it has a magnet) and factory digital as best I can tell.

Analogue it has the same issues. Aside from the accel/decel chatter the locomotive is working properly in all aspects

I think it is running with M4/Motorola
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Offline river6109  
#5 Posted : 21 February 2017 05:19:25(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,636
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
Hi all, the locomotive is DC motor-ed, (meaning it has a magnet) and factory digital as best I can tell.

Analogue it has the same issues. Aside from the accel/decel chatter the locomotive is working properly in all aspects

I think it is running with M4/Motorola


all my HAG locos have an ESU sound decoder V4 and as I've mentioned above no problems whatsoever. you can program the motor (lokprogrammer) which I do under motor selection and tick the one undedr HAg motors and trhis will set the CV's to its correct parameters.
if this doesn't help I would investigate and inspect the motor and its gears.

John

https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline applor  
#6 Posted : 21 February 2017 05:20:59(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
CV54 (parameter K) is motor load control and it is what you will need to play around with to smooth the operation.

This is outlined in the manual and it also gives the ideal settings for your type of motor:

HAG® motor
CV2 - 4
CV51 - 0
CV52 - 15
CV53 - 100
CV54 - 40
CV55 - 175
CV56 - 200

modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by applor
Offline kiwiAlan  
#7 Posted : 21 February 2017 17:58:19(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post

Any ideas on how to tune? I did the setting CV 54 to Zero and hitting F1 trick


How old is the decoder? Early versions do not appear to have the automatic adjustment of motor parameters available.

Also make sure the throttle is set to 0 and other functions off before setting F1 on.

I have two versions of the handbook for these decoders, the first edition from 2010 does not mention this functionality, the third edition from 2012 does. You will need a lokprogrammer to update the firmware in the decoder.


Offline michelvr  
#8 Posted : 21 February 2017 19:57:14(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Originally Posted by: 5HorizonsRR Go to Quoted Post
Hi all, the locomotive is DC motor-ed, (meaning it has a magnet) and factory digital as best I can tell.

Analogue it has the same issues. Aside from the accel/decel chatter the locomotive is working properly in all aspects

I think it is running with M4/Motorola


i also have a Hag Sbb electric locomotive that is MM and runs okay. But to change it to ESU you will need to also change the magnet. If not it will not run.

I'll post a picture later when I get a chance.

Michel

Offline michelvr  
#9 Posted : 21 February 2017 21:20:48(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
AS mentioned here's some pictures.

Offline 5HorizonsRR  
#10 Posted : 21 February 2017 22:19:48(UTC)
5HorizonsRR

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,863
Location: CA, USA
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
CV54 (parameter K) is motor load control and it is what you will need to play around with to smooth the operation.

This is outlined in the manual and it also gives the ideal settings for your type of motor:

HAG® motor
CV2 - 4
CV51 - 0
CV52 - 15
CV53 - 100
CV54 - 40
CV55 - 175
CV56 - 200



Thanks! All other parameters I should leave as factory then? I guess worst case I can try this then do a factory reset.


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Offline Unholz  
#11 Posted : 22 February 2017 06:00:42(UTC)
Unholz

Switzerland   
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Switzerland
I am really not the digital expert, but some of the information supplied in this thread does seem a bit strange to me. Sorry. Of course there was a period when the old HAG company equipped their locos with Zimo decoders, and some of these models run really nicely (with the proper settings, of course).

With regard to ESU decoders, here are some recommendations and settings in the German-speaking HAG forum that work perfectly for me. You might want to experiment a bit to see what suits your model best: http://www.forum.hag-inf...p;postID=95739#post95739
Offline michelvr  
#12 Posted : 22 February 2017 14:48:56(UTC)
michelvr

Canada   
Joined: 06/07/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,287
Originally Posted by: Unholz Go to Quoted Post
I am really not the digital expert, but some of the information supplied in this thread does seem a bit strange to me. Sorry. Of course there was a period when the old HAG company equipped their locos with Zimo decoders, and some of these models run really nicely (with the proper settings, of course).

With regard to ESU decoders, here are some recommendations and settings in the German-speaking HAG forum that work perfectly for me. You might want to experiment a bit to see what suits your model best: http://www.forum.hag-inf...p;postID=95739#post95739


Hello Stefan,

I believe my help may have made it strange as I did not fully explained why you needed to change the magnet.

I have the HAG Jubilaums-set with a Re 6/6 SBB. The locomotive has a AC motor with a Delta like decoder. To upgrade the locomotive I will need to replace the AC magnet with a DC magnet and replace the Delta like decoder with a ESU M4 decoder. By doing this I will have upgraded the motor and decoder so that now it will have better running characteristics and BENF.

Please see link; http://www.esu.eu/en/sup.../tips-tricks/hamo-umbau/

Michel

Edited by user 22 February 2017 18:23:02(UTC)  | Reason: link added

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