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Offline hvc  
#1 Posted : 30 January 2017 04:43:25(UTC)
hvc

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2013(UTC)
Posts: 411
Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
Hi all,

I'm contemplating my first attempt at a computer controlled layout. I already use a CS2, and understand the basic principles of detection tracks, blocks, etc..., and can run software on Mac, Win or Linux depending on which software suits my needs the best.

I've been reading about the different types of computer control software and how they work. A common theme seems to be that all control blocks must be able to contain the longest train. This poses me a restriction that I don't have right now - and which also doesn't exist in the real world.

Right now, I have passenger trains which are shorter - typically 4 carriages behind a loco - and which fit in a siding or station platform. The station platform tracks, sections of mainline and sidings will each become a control section (block). All good so far.

However, I also have freight trains which are a lot longer than a station platform section. For these I would usually have larger sidings and also a freight yard which has much longer tracks.

Just like in real life, if a freight train passes through a passenger station, it occupies much more than just the one block at the station, being (in my case) about triple the length of a passenger train - and therefore triple the length of a station platform track/siding.

With manual control this is no problem - freight trains belong on the main line or on long passing sidings, and if they need to pass through the station they block both the platform and the main line before and after the station as they go through.

So my question is - can variable length trains and sidings be supported by the computer control software that is our there now? Is anyone running a similar setup?

Thanks in advance!
Herman
- Herman
Offline PeFu  
#2 Posted : 30 January 2017 07:41:33(UTC)
PeFu

Sweden   
Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,209
Originally Posted by: hvc Go to Quoted Post
Hi all,

I'm contemplating my first attempt at a computer controlled layout. I already use a CS2, and understand the basic principles of detection tracks, blocks, etc..., and can run software on Mac, Win or Linux depending on which software suits my needs the best.

I've been reading about the different types of computer control software and how they work. A common theme seems to be that all control blocks must be able to contain the longest train. This poses me a restriction that I don't have right now - and which also doesn't exist in the real world.

Right now, I have passenger trains which are shorter - typically 4 carriages behind a loco - and which fit in a siding or station platform. The station platform tracks, sections of mainline and sidings will each become a control section (block). All good so far.

However, I also have freight trains which are a lot longer than a station platform section. For these I would usually have larger sidings and also a freight yard which has much longer tracks.

Just like in real life, if a freight train passes through a passenger station, it occupies much more than just the one block at the station, being (in my case) about triple the length of a passenger train - and therefore triple the length of a station platform track/siding.

With manual control this is no problem - freight trains belong on the main line or on long passing sidings, and if they need to pass through the station they block both the platform and the main line before and after the station as they go through.

So my question is - can variable length trains and sidings be supported by the computer control software that is our there now? Is anyone running a similar setup?

Thanks in advance!
Herman


The only software I'm familiar with - Railroad & Co TrainController - can manage this (in several ways). Have e.g a look on page 328 in the manual. Cool

Andreasburg-Mattiasberg Bahn is inspired by Swiss railways |Forum Thread |Track Plan |Youtube | C and K track | CS2 | TrainController Gold V10
Offline Danlake  
#3 Posted : 30 January 2017 08:10:16(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi Herman,

I'm also using the train controller software.

For any semi or full automatic control you can designate when occupied blocks shall be released. E.g. a long freight train will not release the block before the last wagon has passed the last sensor in that block or to play it more safe before it has entered the next block.

To get smooth running you can also designate the look ahead, e.g. a computer controlled train will look 2 blocks ahead to reserve a route and not will start before the route can be reserved.

There is countless options and I recommend to have a read trough the manuals for various software program.

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline Minok  
#4 Posted : 03 February 2017 00:45:19(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
hvc,

I would expect todays computer controll programs can do that. They are based on the concept of blocks, yes, but I don't think it is required that all blocks be the same size, nor that a train fit completely inside of a block.
Having all trains be short enough that they fit inside the shortest block, simplifies things in terms of control design and thinking, but I would not expect it to be a requirement.

A block doesn't become available for use by a following train until it is unoccupied - that is, whatever sensing you have deployed to declare it as vacant has triggered. A train doesn't attempt to enter a block until it has been cleared as vacant. None of those things depend on either the length of the block nor the lengths of the several trains.

The more complex the situation, the more checking and computation the software has to do, for sure. If you make the blocks very short, you could in theory run your trains a lot closer together, but that wouldn't be prototypical. But then in H0 scale modeling, space compromises have to be made.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 03 February 2017 13:28:12(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,114
Location: Paris, France
Hi Herman,

Rocrail allows the train length computation:
- by adding the elementary length of each waggon in a consist
- to stop trains entering a shorter block
- to allow a long train to occupy more that one block
- to sort trains for the shortest available block
- etc
I am using it and find it fantastic.
In the example below, the locomotive alone is allowed to enter the steam depot but not the entire train.
This is based on train length and block length.


Kind regards

Jean
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline DaleSchultz  
#6 Posted : 03 February 2017 17:19:10(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Quite correct, good software should be able to combine as many 'blocks' as needed.

On my layout some sections are very short (E.g. an entry path into a station - 2 turnouts) and some runs on the mainline are 180cm long. I can run anything from a single loco running light to a goods train 5.9m long. I don't use occupancy detection, I only look at leading axles getting to detection points and I determine when I have left any section of track by subtracting the length of the train from the occupied tracks at the leading end of the train. Blocks beyond that have been vacated and are released.

See http://cabin-layout.blog...11/computer-control.html for more info.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by DaleSchultz
Offline Minok  
#7 Posted : 03 February 2017 19:09:56(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
Quite correct, good software should be able to combine as many 'blocks' as needed.

On my layout some sections are very short (E.g. an entry path into a station - 2 turnouts) and some runs on the mainline are 180cm long. I can run anything from a single loco running light to a goods train 5.9m long. I don't use occupancy detection, I only look at leading axles getting to detection points and I determine when I have left any section of track by subtracting the length of the train from the occupied tracks at the leading end of the train. Blocks beyond that have been vacated and are released.

See http://cabin-layout.blog...11/computer-control.html for more info.



Dale,
You may want to proof-read that page and edit, as there are some grammar/sentence structure issues that make understanding difficult.

In starting this section, there are issues at the start, and I'm not sure how much it affects other sections.

Quote:
Fundamental Principles
The quality of the train control is directly proportional to the number of s88 style detection points you have in your layout.
In any computer system where a computer controls some device, some method of direct feedback to the computer is extremely important. Imagine send a train from point A to point B. We could start the train and then stop it and after some predetermined number of seconds. In theory that may work but in practice it is highly likely to provide any satisfactory result.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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