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Offline Sang Joon Oh  
#1 Posted : 30 January 2017 01:31:20(UTC)
Sang Joon Oh


Joined: 13/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 14
Hello.

I have a question about detecting location of train.
I know about that we can detect location of any trains with S88 & circuit track 24994.

When train pass over on circuit track, I want to detect which kind of train pass over.
Is it Possible or not.?

Best Regards.
Offline ixldoc  
#2 Posted : 30 January 2017 07:20:31(UTC)
ixldoc

Australia   
Joined: 18/11/2015(UTC)
Posts: 220
Location: Brisbane,Australia
Hi,
Tricky to detect specific trains but possibly by attaching a passive RFID to the loco and have a reader beside the track. The tags are tiny, require no battery, but it would have to be a low power version or it could be detected while the train was anywhere on the track. They are available with a 10cm read distance I believe.
Alternative would be a barcode on the side or under a carriage and reader beside or under the track.
Other more qualified members may be able to suggest other ways.
Welcome to the forum.
Cheers,
Howard.
Offline Danlake  
#3 Posted : 30 January 2017 08:16:17(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Yes with pc software control and railcom from Lenz only.

This has always been the biggest disadvantage with the various train controller: they can detect and manage sequence route logic etc. but they don't know what train triggered a feedback sensor....

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 30 January 2017 08:24:37(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,266
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Danlake Go to Quoted Post
Yes with pc software control and railcom from Lenz only.
Can also be done with RailCom and ESU ECoS. Even without PC control this can be done to some extent.

I think mfx will be able to do the same once the RailCom patents expire ...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline Minok  
#5 Posted : 30 January 2017 21:46:49(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,311
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
As mentioned, RFID would be a current technology one could use - placing small (grain of rice) sized passive (no battery) RFID chips on the bottom of the locomotives (and cars I suppose) and then installing under track RFID transceivers that are RF shielded to focus the signal up in a narrow band - thus being able to read the sensors as they passed by. But thats a project onto itself.

The decoders IN a locomotive could technically transmit their ID out, paired with a sensor ID they just drove past, on the digital stream, but as H0 mentioned, some of the key technology seems to be patented by Lenz and they are releasing it free only to the DCC community. US patents run 19 years, so whenever the patent started,.... we can wait. I suspect Märklin are not going to invent a new technology if they don't have to.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline DaleSchultz  
#6 Posted : 30 January 2017 23:27:37(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Using the standard Märklin products, no. However the reason for this is that it is totally unnecessary. Here is why.

Say you have a goods train and a passenger train.

Say you start with the trains like this:

====goods train>===== s88 #2 ==========s88 #3======passenger train> ====== s88 #4 ===== s88 #5=====

if s88 #2 triggers your software can 'know' that it is the goods train.
if s88 #4 triggers your software can 'know' that it is the passenger train.

It is trivial for the software to track what the state of the trains is. State includes current position, type, speed, colour etc.

See http://cabin-layout.blog...11/computer-control.html especially section called "Train identification systems"
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Piper  
#7 Posted : 31 January 2017 07:32:38(UTC)
Piper

South Africa   
Joined: 13/09/2005(UTC)
Posts: 262
Location: Johannesburg
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
As mentioned, RFID would be a current technology one could use - placing small (grain of rice) sized passive (no battery) RFID chips on the bottom of the locomotives (and cars I suppose) and then installing under track RFID transceivers that are RF shielded to focus the signal up in a narrow band - thus being able to read the sensors as they passed by. But thats a project onto itself.

The decoders IN a locomotive could technically transmit their ID out, paired with a sensor ID they just drove past, on the digital stream, but as H0 mentioned, some of the key technology seems to be patented by Lenz and they are releasing it free only to the DCC community. US patents run 19 years, so whenever the patent started,.... we can wait. I suspect Märklin are not going to invent a new technology if they don't have to.


Hi Minok, good concept. Have a look at Littfinski LDT who has a product that can do this.Cool

https://www.ldt-infocenter.com/d...doku.php?id=en:rfid-home

Regards
Pieter
Era I-V / HO / C-Track / MS2, CS2 & CS3 Z gauge. Insider
Member of Märklin Modellers Group
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Piper
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 31 January 2017 08:20:52(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,266
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
However the reason for this is that it is totally unnecessary.
With RailCom the ECoS can tell a freight train from a passenger train and treat them differently.
This "unnecessary"feature makes a PC "unnecessary".

The s88 solution makes it necessary that the PC software knows all trains (type, length, position). If a power failure or manual re-arranging brings layout and software out of sync, then the software might treat passenger trains like freight trains and vice versa.


Uhlenbrock Lissy is another system for the detection of loco positions.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline DaleSchultz  
#9 Posted : 31 January 2017 19:06:12(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Every digital system uses a computer of some sort (central unit). The lower levels ones do not track the layout state. More sophisticated software does.

In all the years I have been operating my trains I do not recall there ever being a power failure. If that did happen, all the trains would stop and when power comes back on I may have to tell it the locations of a few trains. This is such a trivial task it is not even worth further discussion.

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline perz  
#10 Posted : 01 February 2017 23:19:27(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
I think RFID is (at least theoretically) the optimal technology if you want identification (not just detection). But as Dale Schultz points out, it is hardly necessary to have more than just detection, if you are just interested in the positions of the trains. The SW can keep track of which train is where.

I think RFID would make sense if you e.g. try to implement an automated shunt yard. With a tag in each car you can keep track of each car separately. That won't be easily doable with "just detection" techniques.

Looking att the Littfinski RFID system, however, it seems poorly optimized. Someone should put the effort to fully adapt the technology to the MR conditions to really make it fly.

Bar code was also mentioned. There has been some equipment out there, but it does not work so well in the MR environment.

Beside RFID and bar code, there is also IR communication. Uhlenbrock has (had ?) the "Lizzy" system, and I have built something similar myself. My home made version of it (http://www.persmodelrailroad.com/ir.html) is extremely reliable and quite cost efficient , but it is rather complicated to integrate the transmitters into the locos.
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