Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline baggio  
#1 Posted : 25 January 2017 22:10:02(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Toronto
Hi, Everyone:

Some of you may have read HO's reply to my question in another thread (see below for link, post no. 56) where he says that I can use an MS2 for both Marklin and 2 rail digital locos at the same time. BigGrin

I now want to put forward an idea I have to see if it would work:

Many K tracks are dual in nature, meaning I can use them for both Marklin and 2 rail trains. I have done this in analogue for both systems with good results (but Marklin trains are even slower than they would be on a C track layout).

To run both types, I needed a special track piece to make sure the Marklin AC current did not short circuit the 2 rail DC signal (current).

In digital, however, if I understood it correctly, I should be able to connect my MS2 to a K track oval and run both Marklin and DCC 2 rail locos without problems or special track pieces using the same MS2.

--- IS THIS CORRECT?


If the above is correct, then, can I run them on the same layout at the same time? I think NOT, but I do not know why. Blushing

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Silvano

P.S. I think I know why I cannot run them at the same time: the Marklin locos would short circuit the DCC signal on the layout.


Connecting an MS2 to both Marklin and DCC locos
Offline clapcott  
#2 Posted : 25 January 2017 23:45:36(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,244
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post

In digital, however, if I understood it correctly, I should be able to connect my MS2 to a K track oval and run both Marklin and DCC 2 rail locos without problems or special track pieces using the same MS2.

--- IS THIS CORRECT?


NO



Peter
Offline baggio  
#3 Posted : 26 January 2017 00:05:38(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Toronto
OK, now I am heartbroken Sad

Could you elaborate a bit, Clapcott?

Thanks.
Offline Hoffmann  
#4 Posted : 26 January 2017 00:51:31(UTC)
Hoffmann

Canada   
Joined: 25/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,106
Location: Guelph, Ontario


HI,

No for the following reasons. You are running Marklin digital on one outer rail and the centre rail, Your DC lokomtive is running on both outer rails so think about it Your MS 2 is only able to run one of your configurations.

You been on this subject of trying to run your 2 Systems ( DC and AC ) for a long Time You should make up your mind if You want AC or DC and stick with what You feel suits You best.


Regards Martin


P.S. One Day You will blow one of Your MS or the Decoders in trying the impossible.
marklin-eh
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Hoffmann
Offline baggio  
#5 Posted : 26 January 2017 01:18:11(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Toronto
Thank you, Hoffman for your feedback.

So that you know, the K track is made so that it CAN run BOTH 2 rail AND 3 rail (Marklin), at least in analogue.

What you do is use piece no. 2295 (see below) that has one of the rails broken and that allows for the AC signal to go through without affecting the DC signal. It works VERY well. But the Marklin locos go a bit slower in this layout. This is in ANALOGUE.

As for digital, I must have misunderstood what HO said Sad and as a result I cannot do the same thing in digital. ThumbDown

Take care.



2295
Offline Hoffmann  
#6 Posted : 26 January 2017 02:37:02(UTC)
Hoffmann

Canada   
Joined: 25/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,106
Location: Guelph, Ontario

Hello Baggio,

On K-track straight and curved Pieces the 2 outer rails are not connected to each other with the exception of the straight pieces # 2290/92. So if you assemble a Circle or Oval you can run Ac Locomotive on them only or DC locomotives only never at the same time together The same can be done with C-Track. Now should you install Turnouts or Crossings on this setup You will no longer be able to run DC Locomotives on either K-Track or C-Track. As I mentioned before use one or the other System (AC or DC) it will make Your Life a lot less complicated.



Regards Martin
marklin-eh
Offline baggio  
#7 Posted : 26 January 2017 03:45:50(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Toronto
Thank you, Martin. BigGrin

However, turnouts 22715 and 22716 CAN be used in analogue mode with BOTH AC and DC locos. BUT not at the same time.

What I used to do is park the locos in separate parking sidings off a turnout and run EITHER a DC loco or a Marklin loco.

Again, this was in strictly analogue mode for both.

As I said before, I needed to use the 2295 piece (one of the two) and keep the AC feed behind the two red lines - in between the two red lines the rail was cut so that only one side of the current would flow beyond the red lines.


I am thinking that if I use the same principles and the same "contact track set" 2295, as Marklin calls it, I should be able to do the same in DIGITAL.

I think I am going to have to try it, just to be sure one way or another. I like to live dangerously. ThumpUp

Thanks again for your help.

Silvano
Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 26 January 2017 08:20:31(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,505
Location: DE-NW
You can use one MS2 with one K track oval for two-rail operation and a separate K track oval for three-rail operation at the same time.

You can use one MS2 with one K track oval and use the centre rail for three-rail operation and the catenary for two-rail operation (locos with pantographs only). This works at the same time.
Märklin locos do not have any negative effect on the DCC signal. Some of my Märklin locos operate with DCC while others still have the original MM decoders and use MM.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#9 Posted : 26 January 2017 10:22:08(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 16,719
Location: New Zealand
This thread is not a review of any digital components, but rather a generalised question about digital operation. Thread moved to the Digital forum.
Offline baggio  
#10 Posted : 26 January 2017 14:05:27(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
You can use one MS2 with one K track oval for two-rail operation and a separate K track oval for three-rail operation at the same time.


As a result, since the K track can be used for both systems (albeit not all track is so equipped), can I then just take one Marklin loco and replace it with a, say, Roco, DCC loco and run it and vice versa?

If so, that would give the ability to use BOTH systems on ONE layout. Quite a nice development that would be.

If the answer is "no", then WHY, since I can do this in analogue.

Thank you.

(If I can get enough courage, and time, I will take my second MS2 and use it with this set up and get a answer for me and anyone else who has an interest in this. I will take my chances of blowing a decoder in the process, even though I do not understand why that would happen.)
Offline baggio  
#11 Posted : 26 January 2017 14:08:23(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Toronto
Is my previous reply (and this one) in the new thread?
Offline rbw993  
#12 Posted : 26 January 2017 19:55:24(UTC)
rbw993

United States   
Joined: 19/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 569
Baggio,
Locomotives aren't the only issue. AC wheel sets (read Marklin) will short out the rails of a two rail system. The wheels on DC wheel sets are insulated from each other, AC ones aren't.

Roger
Offline baggio  
#13 Posted : 26 January 2017 20:12:26(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Toronto
Thank you, Roger. BigGrin

In analogue, this issue is resolved by using the piece I referred to above and I was able to keep a Marklin train, loco and wagons, parked while the DC train ran around and another DC train was parked elsewhere.

The question now is whether in digital I can do the same thing using the same source of power: the MS2, and whether I still need to use the special piece.

I will get to the bottom of this and will advise.

If the decoders, MS2, house, etc. all blow up, I will know that it is NOT possible. LOL

If you look at this video, it shows in the background what I said above. The video is not about this issue, however, it had to do with my new 2015 Christmas Regio wagons:


Regio Wagons

Offline Minok  
#14 Posted : 30 January 2017 22:41:05(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,049
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
There are two areas of technology/configuration:

1) Conduction of power/signal from controller to locomotive/cars: 2 conductor, or 3 conductor (note has nothing to do with AC or DC or digital)
* 3 conductor wiring on locos and cars typically have the left and right side wheels electrically connected, so the two track rails carry the same half of the electrical connection pair. The 3rd conductor (center conductor) typically carries the other half.
* 2 conductor wiring on locos and cars typically have the left and right side wheels electrically isolated (resistance paint notwithstanding) so the left and right tracks each carry a separate 1/2 of the power/data feed.

As such if you put a 2 conductor vehicle on a 3 conductor track, nothing happens and the vehicle cannot move, since both its electrical pickups get the same signal (0v no data). If you put a 3 conductor vehicle on a 2 conductor track, you get a short typically, because the two separate signal/power rails get directly connected via the wheel sets and axles on the vehicles.

Now you can rout power/signal through overhead cantenary, for example to get the 2nd DC signal that way when the track has the left and right electrically connected.


2) Power/signal tranmission:
* AC - the power is an alternating current where the amplitude (voltage) of the AC signal determines the speed of the loco
* DC - the power is direct current where the amplitude (voltage) of the DC signal determines the speed of the loco
* digital - where the signal digital data modulated on a 2-state (0 or some postitive peak) voltage as a square wave like signal.

Technically you can mix and match conduction type with any type of power/signal transmission - though in the market they come in specific pairings: Märklin's AC and digital systems are 3-conductor, and DCC and DC solutions by Roco are 2 rail.


But if you want to run a 2-conductor DCC locomotive ON THE SAME TRACK as a 3-conducor DCC or MFX locomotive, your are going to have problems.

You can have them both being powered by the same controller (eg Mobile Station 2), but running at the same time on electrically separate (except for the feed from the mobile station) tracks (ie seperate loops). That is what I plan to do: run my mm,mfx trains on my 3 conductor C/K track part of the layout, and a DCC 2 conductor tram on its own 2 conductor track loop, which is fed the same signal/power as the 3-conductor track. Just by connecting the C-tracks Brown/Red wires that go Rails/Center on the C track to the left and right tracks on that separate section. The 3 conductor locos and cars will never enter the 2 rail tram tracks, and vice versa.


If you intend to run all locos and cars on all the tracks in your layout and you want to run it digitally, then you really need to convert them all to one system (2 conductor or 3 conductor) OR use overhead cantenary as the 2nd pickup for the DCC locos.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
Offline baggio  
#15 Posted : 31 January 2017 00:07:06(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,659
Location: Toronto
Hi, Mink:

Thank you for your post. BigGrin

I think I answered you indirectly in the other thread, post no. 18: AC and DC in analogue

Regards.

Silvano
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2019, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.577 seconds.