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Offline mike c  
#1 Posted : 17 December 2016 19:43:00(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,899
Location: Montreal, QC
We have already seen situations where one model or one production run of an item has a slight difference in colour or in livery with other models that should technically have the same livery. For example, Maerklin's 4225 Bpmz vs other blue/beige IC coaches or the change in the TEE/IC colours between the 1970s and 1980s models.

In this post, I want to address the so-called Eurofima livery, which was known as the C1 livery, as carried by recent models by LS Models (LSM/ModelsWorld), ACME and even Marklin. This was supposed to be the standardized livery for high quality express trains in the post-TEE era. Six railways agreed to this and it was to enter into operation with the joint order of standardized air-conditioned coaches which were to be delivered in the mid-1970s. Those coaches were financed through an organization called Eurofima and the coaches have been known since then as "Eurofima" coaches, although the technical name was VSE (Voiture Standard Europeene) or European Standard Coach, and was known to the national railways by their own designation, Avmz207 (DB), A9/B11* (SNCF, SNCB*), Amoz/Bmoz (OBB), Am (SBB) and Az/Bz (FS).

This week, ModelsWorld (MW) www.models-world.eu released a limited edition Set representing the EC Bavaria (1987) a consist made up of coaches in the Eurofima livery. This set includes two of the SBB Am coaches. Those coach models were delivered with a silver painted roof. I do not recall those coaches having a silver painted roof at any point, and my posts to this effect in several European forums have started an animated discussion there. For those who don't know, ModelsWorld is a division of LS Models dedicated to limited production of specific consists, as seen on their new website.

I have seen a number of photos which appear to show a lighter colour roof on the Eurofima Am coaches than on other coaches (Bpm, WRm and Bm) in the photos of the EC Bavaria. I have also seen similar instances in photos of other trains (EC Iris, etc). The explanation for this is that I believe that the Eurofima Am, which were painted in Germany prior to delivery, have a slightly lighter and perhaps more metallic paint on the roof than do the other SBB coaches which were painted in Switzerland, either by the manufacturer (Bm, Bpm) or by the SBB shops (WRm).

Last year, LS Models released it's first models of the SBB Eurofima Am (47300/301). That model came with a dark grey matte painted roof, which matches all of the other models in the same livery, including the 47235 Set (2 x Bpm and 1 WRm), the 47220 Set (2 x Bm) and the 47207 (Bm). The LSM Eurofima had, like the FS models released at the same time, a light grey stripe along the coach body, while the other SBB coaches had this feature painted in white. This has been another bone of contention for me, as my recollection was that all of the SBB coaches had a matching livery.

It has been quite hard to confirm in photos whether the stripe is actually white or light grey. My memories are that the stripe was reflective white. Photos can be hard to tell, as the reflectivity can make a light grey appear white. The same issue can be said of the CB Rail Class 185 locomotives, as used by Crossrail, where a debate has occurred as to whether the locomotives are painted white or off-white (aka light grey).

To make a determination, I have been scouring my books and the internet for an answer. I have checked through my various editions of "Die Gotthardbahn" (1984) and "Loetschbergbahn" (1983) by Marti and Trueb (Orell Fuessli). I have also been scouring web sites for photos and I must attest that it is very hard to find photos from the period 1975-1998. So far, my best sources have been http://www.polier.ch/page/archiv/Sutter/Sutter.htm and I recently came across another website, http://bahnbilder-von-max.ch, which has a number of photos that I found useful, like this one: http://bahnbilder-von-ma...tures-small/mh_02258.jpg

These photos seem to support my contention that the roofs may have been slightly lighter than the other coaches, but that they were not silver by any means. I cannot confirm the colour of the stripe on the side of the coaches, as the photos may have been affected by reflectivity of the stripes and also by the developing process. The same type of situation occurred with photos of 1960s/1970s TEE coaches and rolling stock, where some photo labs may have developed photos and given the red in the photos a brighter hue than the actual trains ever had, leading to a false sense of what the colour should be.

I did not order the MW/LSM EC Bavaria Set as I can already reproduce this consist using coaches in my collection, in this case the 47235, 47220 and 47207 along with the 47300/47301 Eurofima coaches. Due to the discrepancy in the colour of the white stripe on the side of the Eurofima coaches, I have opted to use the ACME models instead, which have a matching white stripe. I will use the LSM Eurofima coaches in other consists, the first alongside FS coaches in the same livery and the second will be combined with other SBB coaches in assorted liveries.

I have taken some photos of my assorted models in C1 (Eurofima) livery, as well as provided links to some photos of models mentioned and the prototype:

ACME 52400 (L) - LSM 47300 (R)
52400-47300.jpg
ACME 52400 (L) - LSM 47300 (R)
52400-47300.1.jpg
LSM 47235 Bpm (L) - ACME 52400 (R)
47235Bpm-52400.jpg
LSM 47235 Bpm (L) - ACME 52400 (R)
47235Bpm-52400.1.jpg
LSM 47235 Bpm (L) - 47300 (R)
47235Bpm-47300.jpg
LSM 47235 WRm (L) - 47300 (R)
47235WRm-47300.jpg
LSM 47235 WRm (L) - 47300 (R)
47235WRm-47300.2.jpg

Prototype Photos:
EC or IC Bavaria (date unknown) http://www.polier.ch/ima...BB.100-1/SBB-100-044.jpg
The train had a restaurant coach in the original red livery, suggesting that the photo was taken between 1977 and 1983. There appear to be one or two Eurofima Am coaches behind the WRm and the roof does look lighter than the Bm coaches at the front of the train.
http://www.polier.ch/ima...DB/DB-Bay/DB-Bay-117.jpg
What appears to be the IC/EC Bavaria in Munich pulled by a DB BR 144. In this photo, the roof colour looks very similar to that of the Bpm coach to the rear and the stripe on the side seem to match.

http://bahnbilder-von-ma...zona//picture_02258.html
This photo, taken in Bellinzona, shows an Eurofima Am, followed by a WRm and several Bpm. You can see there are slight differences in the colour of the roofs, but here, the question is more about the stripe on the side of the coaches, which seem to match.

Here is a photo of the EC Bavaria, taken from www.reisezugwagen.eu: http://www.reisezugwagen...ent/uploads/Bavaria1.jpg
The second and third coaches are of the Eurofima Am type. The roofs of those coaches do look a little more metallic than the matte grey of the others.

Here is a photo of the MW/LSM Set, taken from the www.reisezugwagen.eu site: http://www.reisezugwagen.../uploads/MW_1608_Set.jpg
Individual coach models:
Am: http://www.reisezugwagen.../MW_1608-3_Am_Seite2.jpg
Bm: http://www.reisezugwagen.../MW_1608-6_Bm_Seite1.jpg

Personally, the silver colour is a deal killer for me. I would not mind if it was painted in a weathered appearance, but full silver is simply a no-go.

Some may regard this as nitpicking, but when a set costs 500 EURs, I think it is a whole other question than a single 50 EUR model.

Regards

Mike C
Offline Shamu  
#2 Posted : 18 December 2016 01:15:09(UTC)
Shamu

Australia   
Joined: 12/07/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,068
Location: In a building site in Yeppoon
I don't know if the company's in question do their own in house blending/mixing of the paint or simply order paint # 12345678 from one of the major (I assume) paint companies.

Either way it could be a similar case to Humbrol I believe it was, for many years certain paint batches were only compared to the last run of that colour and not the original reference sample. Over many years the paints became unrecognisable from the original.

We all have had experience with buying say Panzer Grey from Humbrol, Tamyia, Revell etc........ no 2 are the same although the label says otherwise.

Just my semi related thoughts on the matter.

Of course no excuse the attempt to maintain continuity would be nice.
Sad when its cheaper to buy a new 29640 starter set from Germany than a CS2 on its own in Oz, welcome to the joys of Marklin down under .
Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 18 December 2016 05:19:30(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,899
Location: Montreal, QC
It would seem that they decided based on the photos that they were using to create the consist that they decided that some of the coaches had roofs that were silver. Research would (or should) have revealed that the roofs of those coaches may have been lighter and more metallic than the others, but they were not silver in any way, shape or form and the model should not have been rendered like that.

www.models-world.eu/gb/

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#4 Posted : 19 December 2016 18:44:03(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,899
Location: Montreal, QC
I reached out to Herr Bruno Laemmli, who is a former SBB engineer, in order to try to obtain more information about the colour of the coach roofs of the Eurofima and other orange (C1) painted coaches of the SBB. He runs a website, www.lokifahrer.ch with information about the SBB, the Gotthard route and Swiss trains. I received a very quick and informative reply.
According to Mr Laemmli, the Eurofima Am (1st Class) coaches were delivered to the SBB with metallic roofs, in keeping with the SBB norms in effect at that time. Along with the Eurofima coaches, the SBB also received delivery of a number of RIC Bm (2nd Class) coaches, with matching livery. Starting in 1979, the SBB also took delivery of a small batch of Bpm (2nd Class Open Seating) coaches. These coaches were the first to receive the new matte grey paint on the roofs. The delivery of the RIC Bm coaches continued until 1982/83, but as of 1979, the final batch of coaches received the new matte grey paint on the roof.

Based on this information, I concede that it would be possible to have found a consist of the "Bavaria" with these coaches with silver roofs, but this would only have been possible between 1977 and 1979, as the Eurofima Am coaches and RIC Bm would have received the new grey roof paint at their next major revision. During this period, the "Bavaria" was an Intercity and not a "Eurocity". The EC designation only came into use starting in 1987 and by then all the coaches would have received their revisions and would have been running in the new colours for a few years. The MW/LSM Set is announced as representing the EC consist as seen between 1989 and 1993 (MW website) and as as IC "Bavaria" as seen in 1985 by Lemke.

http://models-world.eu/1...en-zurich-ec-bavaria.jpg
http://www.lemkecollecti...enchen-Zuerich-SBB-Ep.IV

The coaches bear revision (R1 and/or R3) dates ranging from 1982 (WRm) to 1987 (Bpm). Thus, this consist can not represent the train from 1985 (unless this was an Emmett Brown creation). Additionally, the Am coach 508 is labelled as having an R3 in 1985, at which point, the roof would have normally been repainted in the dark grey colours. http://www.reisezugwagen...ds/MW_1608-4_Detail1.jpg
The Bm coach also shows a R3 in 1987, so it too, would be clad in the new matte grey roof paint.

That said, it is entirely possible that due to weathering, carbon deposit from the catenary and the fact that washing facilities can't fully clean the entire roof surface due to the presence of the catenary (live) in the wash zone, that there would be some change to the visual appearance of the roofs and that the original metallic colour might once again become noticeable. In no way, shape or form, would this ever appear in pristine condition as if the coach was just delivered from the manufacturer. This is where I have an issue with this model.

The following photos show some of the Eurofima and Bpm fleet in and around 1981, showing the darker roof colours that would have been in effect:
http://www.railfaneurope...RIC/CFF_WR-RIC-TEE_1.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope...RIC/CFF_WR-RIC_Lux_1.jpg

I hope that this detail is rectified in future productions.

Regards

Mike C
Offline mike c  
#5 Posted : 21 December 2016 07:17:47(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,899
Location: Montreal, QC
On of the members on the Drehscheibe-Online Forum posted a photo belonging to SBB Historic that shows one of the SBB Eurofima coaches shortly after delivery. The photo clearly shows that the coach has a dark grey roof, corresponding to the LS Models, ACME, Roco and Maerklin models that we are all accustomed to. It does NOT show a silver roof.
http://www.drehscheibe-o.../file.php?10,file=155085
http://www.drehscheibe-o...7491,8033728#msg-8033728

Based on this photo, the silver roof as rendered by LSM/Models World would appear to be incorrect. I had thought that a SBB driver would be a good reference, but this photo appears to contradict his recollection.

The photo even shows the blue "door indicator" light, which I had always assumed was not incorporated into the coaches delivered to the SBB. It now seems that this detail was there, but was eliminated by the SBB at some point. Interesting was that this detail was included in the ACME model, but not in the LSM version.

Regards

Mike C
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