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Offline baggio  
#1 Posted : 03 October 2016 01:31:32(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Is there anything bad/dangerous in using analogue locos on a digital layout even if there are digital locos are parked on the layout?

In other words:

If I put a Marklin 3000 on my digital layout and allow power to flow via the MS2 while I have a few digital locos parked on the layout, does this hurt anything?

If I then go one step further and run concurrently a loco 3000 and a digital loco (say the 30000) such that one chases the other (keeping the distance by controlling the digital loco), is anything likely to be damaged?

Put another way: Is there anything in the analogue locos running on a digital layout that can hurt the digital layout?

Before you think I am mad, please remember that analogue locos do not run at full speed on a digital layout.

This means that if I am happy to have only one control for "ON" and "OFF" for the analogue loco, without any slow down or increase speed ability, and let the loco run happily at a good speed, until I shut off the power, am I abusing the loco, the digital layout, both or neither?

Any replies would be welcomed.

BigGrin
Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 03 October 2016 09:50:22(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,839
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I've done this on occasion to test an analogue loco without taking my digital locos off the layout and it doesn't seem to have harmed anything.

I've never run it like this for very long as I don't find it much fun without any way of controlling it. Running a digital loco at the same time means you will probably have to resort to the STOP button to get out of trouble!
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline eroncelli  
#3 Posted : 04 October 2016 17:04:25(UTC)
eroncelli

Italy   
Joined: 16/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 124
Location: Bergamo - italy
Simply the analog loco will jump at the max velocity !
No control at all, but no harm to MS2
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Offline baggio  
#4 Posted : 05 October 2016 02:31:23(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Well, our resident expert, FKowal, has a bit of a different view from Eroncelli's:

Silvano, there are two coils in the analog locomotive which are used to generate the magnetic field which makes the rotational power of the locomotive. These two coils are dependent upon analog power to generate the magnetic fields properly. The motor also gives back electrical power to the digital power supply when it stops or slows down. This is common in all analog (AC) motors.

When you put an analog locomotive on the digital set, the motor does not receive its usual uniform analog power which changes only with respect to voltage. It receives a digital one which has a continuously changing bipolar signal. This means the frequency is changing, and it is a DC (direct current) signal.

This power is bad for the analog locomotive.

It will not run properly and you will probably burn it out over time. Electrical motors are able to be abused for a period of time but they will eventually fail.

I also expect the speed of the analog locomotive will be changing as you change the speed of the digital one.

There is feedback from the analog locomotive returned to the digital power supply called VAR (Volt*Amp*Reactive). Can the digital power supply handle this without damage on a continuous basis? I simply do not know.

In any case, you know the analog locomotive runs slower on the digital even though it is given a 18V track supply which when running in analog would give it a top speed. Intuitively you know this is wrong.

Final answer, it will cause problems and damage but I do not know when. How long will you be lucky?


Please give me an answer why you are NOT crazy in wanting to do this. Scared Blushing LOL

So, what do you think? Is Eroncelli right or is Frank right? Or are they BOTH right? OhMyGod

Happy Thanksgiving Day everyone!!!
Online H0  
#5 Posted : 05 October 2016 08:20:04(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,266
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
So, what do you think? Is Eroncelli right or is Frank right? Or are they BOTH right? OhMyGod
Or are they both wrong? Or partly wrong and partly right?

A lot of speculation, probably from people who never tried it for a long time.

I didn't try it either, so I can only add more speculation.


The controller will make a difference simply because a CU 6021 will give you about 22 V track voltage while it is only about 16 V with an MS2 standard setup.

A loco with a standard Märklin AC/DC motor (e.g. #3000) will behave differently from a loco with a DC motor (e.g. #3311).

The digital track power will always have a higher frequency than the analogue power.
In the case of a CU 6021 the voltage will be much higher than the analogue voltage.


My speculation locos with standard AC/DC motor will run slower on 16 V digital power than they would with 16 V analogue power. The wear of the brushes could be higher and the motor could become warmer than with analogue operation.

I definitely would not try analogue locos with DC motors (e.g. #3311 or non-Märklin) with a CU 6021.
And even the standard AC/DC motor could become very hot when using a CU 6021 even if the loco runs slower than with analogue operation.

I expect that the relatively low track voltage of a standard MS2 setup won't do much harm to the robust AC/DC motor if the loco does not get too hot and if you can live with higher wear of the brushes.
Use at your own risk.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RayF  
#6 Posted : 05 October 2016 12:20:13(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,839
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Essentially you are doing something which the equipment is not intended to do. Whenever this happens there could be unexpected results because the equipment has not been tested in this way.

I have found that I can test an analogue loco for short periods without harm to the loco or the MS2, but I would not run it like this indefinitely.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Mark_1602  
#7 Posted : 06 October 2016 22:18:57(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Hi everybody,

I'd never have thought that anybody would want to use analogue locomotives on a digital layout. Full speed non-stop can't be good in any way, so please let those old locos who have survived the last decades unscathed have a break in a cupboard or display case, or use an analogue transformer to test them, which is relatively inexpensive. Using them on a digital layout without first converting them amounts to torture, and that's not OK! Sad

Old Märklin locos never die if they are well-treated ... Cool

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline baggio  
#8 Posted : 06 October 2016 22:55:50(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
The loco does NOT go at full speed. On a digital layout the analogue loco goes slower than on an analogue layout.

The 3000 can take it. ThumpUp
Offline Mark_1602  
#9 Posted : 07 October 2016 21:43:25(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
The loco does NOT go at full speed. On a digital layout the analogue loco goes slower than on an analogue layout.

The 3000 can take it. ThumpUp


Sure, a 3000 can take almost anything and is so cheap that it can be discarded if things go wrong, but Märklin has never endorsed using analogue locomotives on digital layouts. It doesn't make any sense at all, and it's not good for those locos.

I'm surprised that some digital users do not seem to have an analogue transformer and enough spare rails to make an oval. I test every digital locomotive that I buy in analogue as well as in digital mode. If it doesn't work in both modes, there's something wrong with the decoder. In addition, I'd like to see how digital locomotives perform in analogue mode as that varies a lot according to which decoder or motor is used, so that's kind of interesting. Actually, Märklin specifically endorsed using digital locos on analogue layouts in one of its news brochures recently.

Best regards,
Mark
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
Offline baggio  
#10 Posted : 07 October 2016 22:21:05(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
I am not so sure that all digital locos go well on an analogue layout.

One loco in particular I have runs just fine in digital but had problems in analogue.

I no longer have an analogue layout, but do have the track and transformer to do a supplementary layout, but I just don't see the point. Space with me is an important consideration.

Anyway, I do want to thank everyone who was kind enough to reply BigGrin and take this opportunity to wish everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving Day
(Monday coming in Canada).
Offline Mark_1602  
#11 Posted : 09 October 2016 13:40:02(UTC)
Mark_1602

Luxembourg   
Joined: 24/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 704
Location: Luxembourg
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post
I am not so sure that all digital locos go well on an analogue layout.


That's right, some digital locomotives are a bit disappointing in analogue mode, so I always make a point of testing that. I have some rails and an analogue transformer in a cupboard, so I can set up either a straight track or an oval for testing.
Best regards, Mark

I like Märklin items produced in the 1960s or early '70s, but also digital locos & current rolling stock.
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Offline eroncelli  
#12 Posted : 11 October 2016 14:52:22(UTC)
eroncelli

Italy   
Joined: 16/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 124
Location: Bergamo - italy
Again I confirm: an analog loco on a digital track will run at max speed, with no regulation at all: that's a point !
If this speed is exactly the same as the will run in ac analog is not important.
The standard Maerklin motors are running under ac or dc indifferently: digital current is a mix, but still the motor works; not perfectly, but it works.
In the long run, maybe the motor will suffer (overtemperature), but no one is interested in running a loco at the max speed with no regulation: so, not an issue.

Digital locos can run on analog tracks: and usually run better than analog locos.

I simply don't understand why somebody likes mixing things: an analog TV won't work with digital signal !!
If you like Maerklin analog locos, run these on an "M" track with analog transformer.

Maerklin, at the beginning of the digital era, considered the possibility of running locos on "mixed" tracks (analog and digital) using special "slider isolator" sections: it's possible, but the risk of a wrong connection (burning the digital controller) is so high that almost nobody took this opportunity: they stayed "analog" or switched to "all digital".
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Online H0  
#13 Posted : 12 October 2016 08:23:22(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,266
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: eroncelli Go to Quoted Post
Again I confirm: an analog loco on a digital track will run at max speed, with no regulation at all: that's a point!
There is more to the story.
You have to differentiate between different motor types (e.g. #3000 vs. 3311).

The standard Märklin AC/DC motor will run slower on "digital voltage" than it would with plan 50 Hz AC of the same effective voltage. That's a scientific fact.

Will it run slower with 22 V "digital voltage" than with 16 V AC? I think so.
Will it get hotter with 22 V "digital voltage" than with 16 V AC? I'm afraid it does. Pay attention to the heat even if the speed seems rather slow.

A standard MS2 setup will only have about 16 V "digital voltage" and there may be no heat problem - or at least not bigger than with analogue full-speed operation.


An analogue "AC" three-rail loco on digital voltage will always run "max speed" - but this max speed may be lower than the speed achieved with analogue operation.

Analogue "DC" two-rail locos on digital layouts are a completely different story. The motor might die while the loco is standing still on the track without moving at all, the motor might die while the loco is running rather slow.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline eroncelli  
#14 Posted : 12 October 2016 12:39:10(UTC)
eroncelli

Italy   
Joined: 16/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 124
Location: Bergamo - italy
I didn't want to be precise: I intended to say that running analog locos on a digital track, is not feasible.
Either it runs at high speed (no matter how high, but totally unregulated) or, in case of standard DC motor, it will burn.

I think that you agree with this last sentence, so the issue is solved.
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Offline baggio  
#15 Posted : 12 October 2016 14:15:11(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Analogue "DC" two-rail locos on digital layouts are a completely different story. The motor might die while the loco is standing still on the track without moving at all, the motor might die while the loco is running rather slow.


Quite a while ago, when I considered buying a DC American digital controller that allowed for an analogue loco to be used in a digital layout (not at the same time), I was warned not to do it for the very reason HO pointed out: even if parked (for a long time) while the digital locos ran, the analogue loco may get damaged. Funny that the manufacturer would sell a product that would result in damage to potentially expensive locos. Confused

Thanks again to HO and Eroncelli for your precious feedback. ThumpUp

Until the next time.

Silvano
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