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Offline sjbartels  
#1 Posted : 19 March 2016 18:41:27(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,080
I have ordered (finally) the transfer table 72941 (a birthday present to myself). I decided to do some reading up whilst it's in transit and it refers to the K84 decoder as a means to control it digitally. That being said, is the M84 decoder an updated version that will perform the same task with my CS2, or should I try and seek out on eBay or the like a K84? My preliminary research tells me the M84 will work just fine, but always up for advice and suggestions.

Thanks in advance

American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline clapcott  
#2 Posted : 19 March 2016 21:21:41(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
The k84 *6084(0) is not functionally identical to a m84 (60841)

The k84 uses a SPDT latching relay and will maintain its status when power is removed.
The m84 uses non-latching relays (DPST wired internally for a) the light feed to hobby signals and b) for the main port - one relay per port for each of the 8 outputs). When power is removed all relays, and therefore ports and lights , are turn off.

In context, using the recommended wiring from the 72941 manual, any power off (e.g. track short) will create a "safe" state whereby the drive will be turned off (if it was running)
However it may mean that the direction will revert to a default. In itself this may be manageable , however the status as shown on your controller may be incorrect causing ignorance, if not frustration.
Re: http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/72941_betrieb.pdf

The above operation pertains to a m84 when NOT also having an external power source to it. When an external power supply is deployed, the state for an "operational session" (where the power supply for the external power connection to the m84 is NEVER turned off) will be quite functional and similar to a k84. Of course the same comment about direction deing set tothe default will apply when you startup the layout for your next running session.


In my opinion I might use a k84 if I can find one - definitely not a m84.
In lieu of that, a k83/m83 with external latching relay (even a 7244) is preferable.

Regardless, I believe a m84 , if you do have to use them , should never be expected to be used without an external power supply to maintain their port states.

Edited by user 20 March 2016 05:31:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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Offline sjbartels  
#3 Posted : 19 March 2016 22:36:54(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,080
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
The k84 *6084(0) is not functionally identical to a m84 (60841)

The k84 uses a SPDT latching relay and will maintain its status when power is removed.
The m84 uses non-latching relays (DPDT but wired internally for a xxDT for the light feed to hobby signals but xxST for the main port - one relay per port for each of the 8 outputs). When power is removed all relays, and therefore ports, are turn off

In context, using the recommended wiring from the 7291 manual, any power off (e.g. track short) will create a "safe" state whereby the drive will be turned off (if it was running)
However it may mean that the direction will revert to a default. In itself this may be manageable , however the status as shown on your controller may be incorrect causing ignorance, if not frustration.
Re: http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/72941_betrieb.pdf

The above operation pertains to a m84 when NOT also having an external power source to it. When an external power supply is deployed, the state for an "operational session" (where the power supply for the external power connection to the m84 is NEVER turned off) will be quite functional and similar to a k84. Of course the same comment about direct will apply when you startup the layout for your next session.


In my opinion I might use a k84 if I can find one - deffinitely not a m84.
In lieu of that, a k83/m83 with external latching relay (even a 7244) is preferable.

Also I believe a m84 , if you do use them , should never be expected to be used without an external power supply.



Thanks Peter. Ideally I would prefer to use an external power source for the decoder, I am trying to limit the current pull from the CS2 as much as possible. That being said, finding a K84 doesn't seem a difficult prospect, I found several quite easily on eBay. Your information here is exactly what I am looking to know, thanks.
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline Harvey  
#4 Posted : 25 March 2016 14:32:01(UTC)
Harvey

United States   
Joined: 17/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 520
Location: Glen Oaks, N.Y.
I have a slightly different question about the M84.

I currently use my 2 K84's to provide power to my hidden station tracks. My CS2 powers the freight lines and, when I open up one of the hidden station tracks, the CS2 will provide power to that track via the K84. I use my booster to turn on/off each of the 4 relays of the K84. My question about the M84 is whether this can provide the same functionality? The product line manual mentions continuous current for lightling,motors, and other electronic accessories. But not track current. If the M84 is not appropriate to use, what other device is (K84s are no longer produced).

Appreciate suggestions

Harvey
Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 25 March 2016 14:51:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 13,840
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
K84s are no longer produced
Viessmann 5213 is in stock at Viessmann. There also could be other brands.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline sjbartels  
#6 Posted : 25 March 2016 20:39:59(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,080
Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
I have a slightly different question about the M84.

I currently use my 2 K84's to provide power to my hidden station tracks. My CS2 powers the freight lines and, when I open up one of the hidden station tracks, the CS2 will provide power to that track via the K84. I use my booster to turn on/off each of the 4 relays of the K84. My question about the M84 is whether this can provide the same functionality? The product line manual mentions continuous current for lightling,motors, and other electronic accessories. But not track current. If the M84 is not appropriate to use, what other device is (K84s are no longer produced).

Appreciate suggestions

Harvey


You raise the exact thought that I had... I've since gotten conflicting information concerning the M84 as a suitable replacement for the K84, so right now the muddy waters have turned into the equivalent of an oil slick....
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
Offline clapcott  
#7 Posted : 25 March 2016 20:54:03(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
The m84 has 8 relays (one per port) that are amply rated for heavy track loads

It is possible to control each port in toggle mode - no specific on or off command - which may be ok for some use where manual observation allows for knowing what state the item is in.
NOTE: In single toggle mode, you do need to address the ports "mate", who by default will turn the port off.

Or you can expand the current default configuration where the ports are configured in pairs (4 pairs) up to a set of 8 (or two sets of , or 3 and 5 ....)
whereby turning any port on automatically turns the other ports off - this is quite a good solution for fiddle yards (up to 7 tracks from one m84))
Ref: https://www.marklin-user...light-reading#post447390
NOTE: as the m84 does this itself, the CS2 (any controller) has no accurate knowledge of what the states is and will probably show erroneously on its display.

Also the m84 needs constant power to avoid relays turning of (e.g. if the booster shorts out)

My personal preference remains a k83 (or equivalent) and an external ,latching, relay (or relays) .
This can provide ...
- higher current capabilities,
- multi-pole capabilities,
- reduced wiring
- better utilisation of a unit (some ports can be k83 like others k84 like)
- Oh ... and it is cheaper.
NOTE: the "external relay" could be a Marklin 7244 or signal which has separate contact(s) for track circuits


Peter
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Offline Harvey  
#8 Posted : 26 March 2016 03:23:40(UTC)
Harvey

United States   
Joined: 17/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 520
Location: Glen Oaks, N.Y.
Peter and others

I remain confused about the M84 (wrt to my set up - CS2 powering tracks, booster powering K83, K84, signals and turnouts). I would want to use the power from the CS2 (transformer 60055) to power the hidden stage tracks. I would use memory in the CS2 to tell the K84/M84 what tracks to feed power to. Or, I would use the CS2 Keyboard to turn power on/off. That is how I use the K84. Hopefully a member has done this and can provide a diagram.

I found some instruction on the internet (helpful but not a complete picture).

http://www.rjftrains.com...cal/60841_manual_new.pdf
From Page 11
1 Dip switches for setting the address
2 Connection socket for 66361 (230V) /66365 (120 V) (only in conjunction with 60822) My emphasis. (not understanding if this means I cannot use the 60055 or if, for my purpose, I would not connect any transformer to that port and I would feed power from the track (which is powered by the 60055/CS2).
3 Plugs and sockets for direct connection of several m83/m84 decoders
4 Set screw terminals for connections to the track
5 Set screw terminals for users
Contact connections for the 74371, 74391, and 74380 color light signals
7 Set screw terminals for external buttons or switching contacts

Another reference is

http://mediencms.maerkli...downloads/Programmierung M84.pdf

Decoder setting parameters with the Central Station 2 / Mobile Station 2
At the present time the M84 can be programmed only in the DCC mode and on a programming
track. - This may be a dated comment
1. Entering a locomotive with a DCC decoder type (see instructions for the Central Station or
Mobile Station)
2. Setting the DCC mode with switch 10 on the M84.
3. Going into the CV programming mode for the locomotive being entered.
4. Entering, changing, disable the Desired CVs.
5. After all of the changes have been programmed and stored, set the M84 back to MM with
switch 10. All of the changes have now taken effect

Regards
Harvey
Offline Danlake  
#9 Posted : 26 March 2016 07:13:37(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,522
Hi Harvey,

I would opt for simplicity and just get a basic K84 decoder. The cheapest I found is from this German vendor:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/S...68726:g:s6IAAOSw2s1UtluS

As I see it the only benefit with the new M84 decoder is that you can do some programming and tweaking on the ports. But it's an expensive way if you just need a basic relay to switch off/on power to your hidden yard.

On the CS2 keyboard there is symbol for on/off track tracks. You configure this to the actual port of the K84. When you do your routes (memory), you will then pull out this event.

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
User is suspended until 30/01/2021 11:18:10(UTC) Goofy  
#10 Posted : 26 March 2016 18:49:55(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,331
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
K84s are no longer produced
Viessmann 5213 is in stock at Viessmann. There also could be other brands.


Yes like ESU with the switch pilot 2.0!
You can choise mode...DCC/K83 or k84.

Offline clapcott  
#11 Posted : 27 March 2016 00:36:15(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: Harvey Go to Quoted Post
K84s are no longer produced
Viessmann 5213 is in stock at Viessmann. There also could be other brands.


Yes like ESU with the switch pilot 2.0!
You can choise mode...DCC/K83 or k84.



Goofy . you are correct that ESU state that they have a mode of operation for the SwitchPilot called "k84 mode"

HOWEVER ...
Ref 5.2.1.2 - 04213-13564_SwitchPilot_V20_Familie_ESUKG_EN_Betriebsanleitung_Auflage-3_eBook.pdf from http://www.esu.eu/en/dow...anuals/digital-decoders/

... ESU are blatantly WRONG in their assertion that in this mode ...
The SwitchPilot behaves exactly like a Märklin® k84."
in the very next paragraph (with a Warning symbol in the margin) they , themselves, state ...
"All consumer loads are directly electrified by the SwitchPilot. You must not connect any external voltage!"

So, while they may be able to turn on/off lights and similar continuous (DC) loads, the power for these ports is provided FROM the SwitchPilot via transistor switching rather than THROUGH a relay. Further the transistors need power to operate, so the outputs turn off if input power (track and external) is removed. (depending on the internal memory setup the ports on/off state may be restored when power is restored.

ESU do have a "SwitchPilot Extension" (ESU #51801) which, is an aditional expense to the base SwithcPilot and, does have relays
Ref section 5.1.4 ...
"... Each SwitchPilot Extension module has 4 by 2 relay outputs that are operated in parallel to the corresponding outputs of the SwitchPilot.
This corresponds to the established k84-solution.... "

BUT as with the m84 these are not latching
"... The internal logic and relays of the SwitchPilot Extension module receive power from the SwitchPilot. ..."
Peter
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H0GSRR
Offline Minok  
#12 Posted : 28 November 2016 22:38:17(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,182
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
I have ordered (finally) the transfer table 72941 (a birthday present to myself). I decided to do some reading up whilst it's in transit and it refers to the K84 decoder as a means to control it digitally. That being said, is the M84 decoder an updated version that will perform the same task with my CS2, or should I try and seek out on eBay or the like a K84? My preliminary research tells me the M84 will work just fine, but always up for advice and suggestions.

Thanks in advance



Did you ever resolve which type of decoder to get to control the transfer table digitally?
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Minok1217/
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Offline Ross  
#13 Posted : 29 November 2016 00:09:50(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 752
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Minok,

I think Peter explained it very well. Use a k83/M83 with latching relays as it is the simplest and cheapest solution.

Wiring of the Transfer Table
First the wiring to control the Transfer Table using two sections of a k84 extracted from the Marklin
digital book 0303 “Model Railroading digitally controlled”.

UserPostedImage

Typical latching relay wiring diagram

UserPostedImage

This is very easy to do and is reliable.


Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
I have ordered (finally) the transfer table 72941 (a birthday present to myself). I decided to do some reading up whilst it's in transit and it refers to the K84 decoder as a means to control it digitally. That being said, is the M84 decoder an updated version that will perform the same task with my CS2, or should I try and seek out on eBay or the like a K84? My preliminary research tells me the M84 will work just fine, but always up for advice and suggestions.

Thanks in advance



Did you ever resolve which type of decoder to get to control the transfer table digitally?


Ross
Offline clapcott  
#14 Posted : 29 November 2016 02:11:43(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,377
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Ross Go to Quoted Post

UserPostedImage

This diagram is functional but is from the 80's and poorly addresses the future(now) environment

An assumption is being made that there is an internal common link between the grounds (Brown="0") within both the Transformer and the Controller

In this day and age, you should not be using the same transformer to power a Controller and Accessory power.

The issue is the transfers table motor Brown (shown at bottom left of the unit, just above the two black control wires)
This wire/circuit is destined for the transformers Brown, but has to find its way through the k84 and through the CentralUnit

Replacing the CentralUnit (6020 from the 80s' - or the 6021 from the 90's) with any new controller will NOT provide this ground return link.
Infact there is a specific requirement to remove it where the accessory device does have a link to the track rail/roadbed (brown)

Thus I suggest a modification to the image to be more technically correct and future proof.
UserPostedImage
From this diagram you may replace the controller (6020 CentralUnit) with a CS(1/2/3/) or MS without complications

I have also shown the Brown/Red TT track feed redirected , from running through the k84 to the more meaningful feed from the Controller itself.
This was just lazy/sloppy and while it may speak to the marketing single "2 wire" mentality, it does not gel with the reality of good practices.


Also please reference page 10 and 11
http://medienpdb.maerkli...s/1/pdf/7294_betrieb.pdf


N.B. The address labeling of the k84 ports is also WRONG! in the original publication (ports 3 and 4 should be swapped)
Peter
Offline Ross  
#15 Posted : 29 November 2016 04:44:41(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 752
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Peter,

Thanks for providing an update to the diagram.

I provided the diagram more to show how a latching relay could be wired to a k83/M83 instead of the k84.

You are correct in saying this is old technology. I think it is high time Marklin provided a better transfer table, changing the number from 7294 to 72941 is a joke.

The transfer table should have a decoder that allows the correct stub track to be selected with a speed control that slows the bridge as it reaches the correct track. It could also have signals, cabin lights and sound, provided that the motor was silent. Why design for M-track when C + K track are the only current track systems.

The weakness with the bridge contacts is a problem as I have worn them out. I bought a second TFT just for a new bridge. With this new bridge I removed the bridge rails and replaced them with K-track rails adding 3 contacts for computer control.

The catenary gantry and wires are no longer provided as well as the k84 which is still mentioned in the current documentation so there is no complete solution that can be bought from Marklin at the present time.

I'm a heavy user of both the TFT and TT and so far I have replaced the TFT bridge and now on my 3rd motor. For the TT I'm on my 4th motor.



Ross
Offline sjbartels  
#16 Posted : 29 November 2016 06:14:16(UTC)
sjbartels

United States   
Joined: 11/08/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,080
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: sjbartels Go to Quoted Post
I have ordered (finally) the transfer table 72941 (a birthday present to myself). I decided to do some reading up whilst it's in transit and it refers to the K84 decoder as a means to control it digitally. That being said, is the M84 decoder an updated version that will perform the same task with my CS2, or should I try and seek out on eBay or the like a K84? My preliminary research tells me the M84 will work just fine, but always up for advice and suggestions.

Thanks in advance



Did you ever resolve which type of decoder to get to control the transfer table digitally?


You now, its funny, after all that my transfer table is still in it's original box in my train room and I never got around to doing anything..... given all of this information I need to go back and look into this again. I think I have this weekends project!
American by Geography, Australian by Birth. I am an original Ameristraylian
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